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If you have a relatively humane set of worker protections in addition to the a straight-forward path to legal immigration, it's nothing like indentured servitud

by smcl 4y ago

If you have a relatively humane set of worker protections in addition to the a straight-forward path to legal immigration, it's nothing like indentured servitude or slavery. It's just ... work.

EdwardDiego 4y ago
Technically yes, but in reality, greed... greed never changes. And immigration regulations that are intended to protect against abuse of the system, are often abused to extort people. E.g., you're from country X, living in a new country, Y, where you've bought a small business. Y is a desirable country to live in if you are from X. Your business is very low margin. You work very long hours to keep afloat. But, an immigration broker also from country X gets in touch. They have many clients back home who would love to be in country Y. They just need a work visa, but the job has to be a) skilled and b) not able to be easily filled by an existing citizen or permanent resident of Y. So here's the deal. The client pays the broker to be introduce to you. The client then agrees to pay you for a job - often there's a lump sum up-front, and often there's ongoing payments made under the table to the employer. You have to create a position that's suitably skilled of course, and you have to prove you couldn't fill the role locally. So your corner store is now recruiting for a "retail and marketing manager", and you placed one advert in the situations vacant in a local newspaper, no-one replied. You are now able to recruit your retail and marketing manager from X, and they can move here knowing that they have a work visa. It's a great deal - your worker got to move from X to Y, and you got an employee who, after their below-table payments to you, is likely working for far below minimum wage. And here's the best bit - if you treat them like crap, and they decide to complain to the authorities, well, given that they knowingly participated in immigration fraud, which you have proof of, they're very likely to be deported and banned from returning. So they have a very strong disincentive to complain, no matter how you treat them. And thus you continue to have a good source of revenue and cheap labour until they've been in the country long enough to apply for residence. And then, gosh well, you'll need another retail and marketing manager, won't you? Who pays a lump-sum upfront, and then kickbacks for two years. Here's some examples from my country: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122467368/vicious-cycle-why-are-some-indian-migrants-so-badly-exploited-in-nz https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122467368/vicious-cycle-why... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/411939/samoan-chief-joseph-auga-matamata-found-guilty-of-human-trafficking-and-slavery-charges https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/411939/samoan-chief-jose... https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123020969/tauranga-man-charged-with-migrant-worker-exploitation-in-the-kiwifruit-industry https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123020969/tauranga-man-char... Fixing this is a hard question - yes, we want workers being exploited to be able to complain, but we also don't want people lying and falsifying documentation to get a visa. So what do you do in these scenarios? Where do you find a balance?
- smcl 4y ago
  So the country needs workers, has an immigration policy that restricts the flow of those required workers and is hostile and unforgiving towards those that do find their way into the country. Sounds to me like this is not in tension at all with what I said. This country should provide a way for those required workers to immigrate without an "immigration broker" [shudder] to abuse and hold power over them. The fact that a lot of governments are xenophobic[0] and/or want to erode workers' rights[1] means that many places don't have this - apparently this includes New Zealand. But it doesn't change that this is a way to virtually eliminate that sort of problem. It might seem like a lofty or unattainable goal, but we shouldn't ignore what is right just because it's hard to do. [0] - or enact such policies to appeal to a xenophobic portion of the electorate [1] - or were elected with help from wealthy people and corporations who benefit when workers have less rights
bombcar 4y ago
And if I had a pony with wings I could fly to work. It's totally possible to have just and moral immigration, but it's certainly not the situation in many so-called developed countries today. Of course, many countries are almost as good at exploiting citizens as they are non-citizens, so there's that.
- smcl 4y ago
  It's fine to concede that the world isn't perfect - but saying that because you aren't well protected as a worker and that therefore immigration is wrong is nonsense. And I wasn't asking for a magical pony with wings - I deliberately set the bar very low, "relatively humane" is table stakes.

by smcl 4y ago

If you have a relatively humane set of worker protections in addition to the a straight-forward path to legal immigration, it's nothing like indentured servitude or slavery. It's just ... work.

EdwardDiego 4y ago

Technically yes, but in reality, greed... greed never changes. And immigration regulations that are intended to protect against abuse of the system, are often abused to extort people. E.g., you're from country X, living in a new country, Y, where you've bought a small business. Y is a desirable country to live in if you are from X. Your business is very low margin. You work very long hours to keep afloat. But, an immigration broker also from country X gets in touch. They have many clients back home who would love to be in country Y. They just need a work visa, but the job has to be a) skilled and b) not able to be easily filled by an existing citizen or permanent resident of Y. So here's the deal. The client pays the broker to be introduce to you. The client then agrees to pay you for a job - often there's a lump sum up-front, and often there's ongoing payments made under the table to the employer. You have to create a position that's suitably skilled of course, and you have to prove you couldn't fill the role locally. So your corner store is now recruiting for a "retail and marketing manager", and you placed one advert in the situations vacant in a local newspaper, no-one replied. You are now able to recruit your retail and marketing manager from X, and they can move here knowing that they have a work visa. It's a great deal - your worker got to move from X to Y, and you got an employee who, after their below-table payments to you, is likely working for far below minimum wage. And here's the best bit - if you treat them like crap, and they decide to complain to the authorities, well, given that they knowingly participated in immigration fraud, which you have proof of, they're very likely to be deported and banned from returning. So they have a very strong disincentive to complain, no matter how you treat them. And thus you continue to have a good source of revenue and cheap labour until they've been in the country long enough to apply for residence. And then, gosh well, you'll need another retail and marketing manager, won't you? Who pays a lump-sum upfront, and then kickbacks for two years. Here's some examples from my country: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122467368/vicious-cycle-why-are-some-indian-migrants-so-badly-exploited-in-nz https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122467368/vicious-cycle-why... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/411939/samoan-chief-joseph-auga-matamata-found-guilty-of-human-trafficking-and-slavery-charges https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/411939/samoan-chief-jose... https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123020969/tauranga-man-charged-with-migrant-worker-exploitation-in-the-kiwifruit-industry https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123020969/tauranga-man-char... Fixing this is a hard question - yes, we want workers being exploited to be able to complain, but we also don't want people lying and falsifying documentation to get a visa. So what do you do in these scenarios? Where do you find a balance?

smcl 4y ago
So the country needs workers, has an immigration policy that restricts the flow of those required workers and is hostile and unforgiving towards those that do find their way into the country. Sounds to me like this is not in tension at all with what I said. This country should provide a way for those required workers to immigrate without an "immigration broker" [shudder] to abuse and hold power over them. The fact that a lot of governments are xenophobic[0] and/or want to erode workers' rights[1] means that many places don't have this - apparently this includes New Zealand. But it doesn't change that this is a way to virtually eliminate that sort of problem. It might seem like a lofty or unattainable goal, but we shouldn't ignore what is right just because it's hard to do. [0] - or enact such policies to appeal to a xenophobic portion of the electorate [1] - or were elected with help from wealthy people and corporations who benefit when workers have less rights

bombcar 4y ago

And if I had a pony with wings I could fly to work. It's totally possible to have just and moral immigration, but it's certainly not the situation in many so-called developed countries today. Of course, many countries are almost as good at exploiting citizens as they are non-citizens, so there's that.

smcl 4y ago
It's fine to concede that the world isn't perfect - but saying that because you aren't well protected as a worker and that therefore immigration is wrong is nonsense. And I wasn't asking for a magical pony with wings - I deliberately set the bar very low, "relatively humane" is table stakes.