4 ms·

The people with these qualities are victims of systemic problems. Underfunded education, poverty, abuse, criminal justice that just throws everyone in jail. We

The people with these qualities are victims of systemic problems. Underfunded education, poverty, abuse, criminal justice that just throws everyone in jail. We fix those things, I guarantee the army will have much better recruits.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
angry_octet 4y ago
If you cleansed every conviction for petty possession that alone would solve the problem. But radical evangelicals hold senior positions in the services, and they don't like people unlike themselves. Then we have other crimes of poverty like not paying parking tickets (no money for the meter, aggressive local govt parking restrictions to exclude undesirable poor people), driving unregistered (because they're broke but you're an unperson without a car) etc. And of course, driving while black.
- Amezarak 4y ago
  This is one of those comments I have difficulty reconciling with my experience. Ex-cons and former addicts seem to be a substantial part of the evangelical churches I've been familiar with. Of course I do not know any highly-placed military officers, but the officers I have known do not seem to be and would not describe themselves as religious. They all have sort of a mentality I am not really prepared to put my finger on. Generally, their whole world and interpretive lens centers around the USM.
  - angry_octet 4y ago
    The presence of 'saved' individuals sadly does not seem to alter their views of the damned. The USAF and USMC are notoriously problematic with both evangelical/baptist and Mormon cliques. In the USAF this is on top of an already toxic culture -- as evidenced by the ongoing hemorrhaging of pilots. (I could reference many reports but e.g. [1] will do.) The steady push towards religious prominence in military affairs is hard to miss [2][3]. Now your CO can invite you to his Church and his prayer service, and you'd best understand that your performance appraisal is the stakes. Probably not a good idea to mention your support of trans soldiers. It's all part of the broader culture war of course. Many good officers hold the line against sectarian creep, including (or even especially) devoutly religious members, but the pressure to be Christian is growing. [1] https://jqpublicblog.com/air-force-put-stop-loss-back-away/ https://jqpublicblog.com/air-force-put-stop-loss-back-away/ [2] https://www.thechurchnews.com/2016/6/2/23214292/elder-bednar-addresses-lds-graduates-at-u-s-air-force-academy https://www.thechurchnews.com/2016/6/2/23214292/elder-bednar... [3] https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/09/18/pentagon-unveils-new-religious-liberty-policies-after-pressure-from-conservative-lawmakers/ https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/09/18/...
    - QuarterReptile 4y ago
      >Many good officers hold the line against sectarian creep, including (or even especially) devoutly religious members, but the pressure to be Christian is growing. Maybe I'm in the wrong community, but I don't see this at all. My experience for the last several years is that a preponderance of the guys I work with is lapsed Catholics. I have heard, however, that the Navy, and particularly officers (increasing at higher ranks) is comparatively left-leaning and secularist.
      - angry_octet 4y ago
        There are many communities in a huge military force, and obviously there are many Catholics too, both devout and lapsed. I don't think I could characterise any of the USN leadership (O5 and up) as at all left leaning, though they have obviously travelled widely and generally worked with people in far flung places, unlike other branches.
ben_w 4y ago
> We fix those things, I guarantee the army will have much better recruits. Great! How?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- socialismisok 4y ago
  Ball reform, to keep low level nonviolent accused out of jail so they can hold down a job. Social housing, widely distributed low rise apartments run by the city or state to ensure we can house everyone. Avoid high rise or dense social housing clusters. Tax the wealthy, increase pay for teachers (not administrators), pay teachers overtime. Build more schools, and provide nutritious food for every student both because it's the right thing to do but also to build knowledge of what healthy food looks like. Vacate convictions for things like possession. Those are the simple ones, there's plenty more we could do.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Nothing on that list that I would disagree with. But, this is all the exact opposite of what I've seen from electorally successful anglosphere[0] politicians. Do you think you could convince people to vote for that? [0] I live in Germany now, but my german language skill is only good enough to tell me that politically the AfD hate me and Die Partei are having a laugh
testfoobar 4y ago
At what point do you think personal responsibility kicks in? Everyone has the option to eat healthy - the messaging on healthy diets is everywhere. Everyone has the option to study - Khan Academy is better than most private school instruction. It is free. Broadband is subsidized or free for poor families. Food is subsidized for poor families. At what point is it a failure of the person and not the system?
- gamechangr 4y ago
  I used to think this, but it's so broken as you apply it. I aslo didnt realize the arrogance that is embedded in it as well as the role that chance played in my good financial position. My best friend is a chemical engineer. He's studied 2 or 3 magnitudes harder than me, but the last 20 years didn't favor Chemical Engineers as much as software engineers. He's done well or plenty good, but to reduce the question of economics to a sense of personal responsibility as if those who are not financially stable -- deserve it, because they are lazy or not aware -- is a gross understatement and exactly why there is a such division in this country.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > Everyone has the option to eat healthy Yet some people live in food deserts and can't readily access reasonably priced healthy foods. 19 million Americans have limited access to a proper store (https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts) and unhealthy foods cost poor Americans less than healthy foods in both money and (more importantly) time. > Broadband is subsidized or free for poor families. and yet during the pandemic school districts had to drive school buses acting as hotspots into poor communities in order to help the ~15 million public school students who had zero internet access but had to participate in remote learning. (https://all4ed.org/publication/homeworkgap/ https://all4ed.org/publication/homeworkgap/) Millions more have some form of internet access, but don't have internet speeds or devices capable enough for online learning. In Alcona county for example 60% of the students don't have reliable internet access at home. The system is failing a whole lot of people. That doesn't absolve people from personal responsibility but it's wrong to pretend very real problems don't exist and influence people's actions and outcomes.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

angry_octet 4y ago

If you cleansed every conviction for petty possession that alone would solve the problem. But radical evangelicals hold senior positions in the services, and they don't like people unlike themselves. Then we have other crimes of poverty like not paying parking tickets (no money for the meter, aggressive local govt parking restrictions to exclude undesirable poor people), driving unregistered (because they're broke but you're an unperson without a car) etc. And of course, driving while black.

Amezarak 4y ago
This is one of those comments I have difficulty reconciling with my experience. Ex-cons and former addicts seem to be a substantial part of the evangelical churches I've been familiar with. Of course I do not know any highly-placed military officers, but the officers I have known do not seem to be and would not describe themselves as religious. They all have sort of a mentality I am not really prepared to put my finger on. Generally, their whole world and interpretive lens centers around the USM.
- angry_octet 4y ago
  The presence of 'saved' individuals sadly does not seem to alter their views of the damned. The USAF and USMC are notoriously problematic with both evangelical/baptist and Mormon cliques. In the USAF this is on top of an already toxic culture -- as evidenced by the ongoing hemorrhaging of pilots. (I could reference many reports but e.g. [1] will do.) The steady push towards religious prominence in military affairs is hard to miss [2][3]. Now your CO can invite you to his Church and his prayer service, and you'd best understand that your performance appraisal is the stakes. Probably not a good idea to mention your support of trans soldiers. It's all part of the broader culture war of course. Many good officers hold the line against sectarian creep, including (or even especially) devoutly religious members, but the pressure to be Christian is growing. [1] https://jqpublicblog.com/air-force-put-stop-loss-back-away/ https://jqpublicblog.com/air-force-put-stop-loss-back-away/ [2] https://www.thechurchnews.com/2016/6/2/23214292/elder-bednar-addresses-lds-graduates-at-u-s-air-force-academy https://www.thechurchnews.com/2016/6/2/23214292/elder-bednar... [3] https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/09/18/pentagon-unveils-new-religious-liberty-policies-after-pressure-from-conservative-lawmakers/ https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/09/18/...
  - QuarterReptile 4y ago
    >Many good officers hold the line against sectarian creep, including (or even especially) devoutly religious members, but the pressure to be Christian is growing. Maybe I'm in the wrong community, but I don't see this at all. My experience for the last several years is that a preponderance of the guys I work with is lapsed Catholics. I have heard, however, that the Navy, and particularly officers (increasing at higher ranks) is comparatively left-leaning and secularist.
    - angry_octet 4y ago
      There are many communities in a huge military force, and obviously there are many Catholics too, both devout and lapsed. I don't think I could characterise any of the USN leadership (O5 and up) as at all left leaning, though they have obviously travelled widely and generally worked with people in far flung places, unlike other branches.

ben_w 4y ago

> We fix those things, I guarantee the army will have much better recruits. Great! How?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
socialismisok 4y ago
Ball reform, to keep low level nonviolent accused out of jail so they can hold down a job. Social housing, widely distributed low rise apartments run by the city or state to ensure we can house everyone. Avoid high rise or dense social housing clusters. Tax the wealthy, increase pay for teachers (not administrators), pay teachers overtime. Build more schools, and provide nutritious food for every student both because it's the right thing to do but also to build knowledge of what healthy food looks like. Vacate convictions for things like possession. Those are the simple ones, there's plenty more we could do.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Nothing on that list that I would disagree with. But, this is all the exact opposite of what I've seen from electorally successful anglosphere[0] politicians. Do you think you could convince people to vote for that? [0] I live in Germany now, but my german language skill is only good enough to tell me that politically the AfD hate me and Die Partei are having a laugh

testfoobar 4y ago

At what point do you think personal responsibility kicks in? Everyone has the option to eat healthy - the messaging on healthy diets is everywhere. Everyone has the option to study - Khan Academy is better than most private school instruction. It is free. Broadband is subsidized or free for poor families. Food is subsidized for poor families. At what point is it a failure of the person and not the system?

gamechangr 4y ago
I used to think this, but it's so broken as you apply it. I aslo didnt realize the arrogance that is embedded in it as well as the role that chance played in my good financial position. My best friend is a chemical engineer. He's studied 2 or 3 magnitudes harder than me, but the last 20 years didn't favor Chemical Engineers as much as software engineers. He's done well or plenty good, but to reduce the question of economics to a sense of personal responsibility as if those who are not financially stable -- deserve it, because they are lazy or not aware -- is a gross understatement and exactly why there is a such division in this country.
autoexec 4y ago
> Everyone has the option to eat healthy Yet some people live in food deserts and can't readily access reasonably priced healthy foods. 19 million Americans have limited access to a proper store (https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts https://www.aecf.org/blog/exploring-americas-food-deserts) and unhealthy foods cost poor Americans less than healthy foods in both money and (more importantly) time. > Broadband is subsidized or free for poor families. and yet during the pandemic school districts had to drive school buses acting as hotspots into poor communities in order to help the ~15 million public school students who had zero internet access but had to participate in remote learning. (https://all4ed.org/publication/homeworkgap/ https://all4ed.org/publication/homeworkgap/) Millions more have some form of internet access, but don't have internet speeds or devices capable enough for online learning. In Alcona county for example 60% of the students don't have reliable internet access at home. The system is failing a whole lot of people. That doesn't absolve people from personal responsibility but it's wrong to pretend very real problems don't exist and influence people's actions and outcomes.