5 ms·

There are many situations where jobs suck, or are dangerous, etc. In that case, the employer can make them suck less or pay a lot more. At some point, they will

by rsj_hn 4y ago

There are many situations where jobs suck, or are dangerous, etc. In that case, the employer can make them suck less or pay a lot more. At some point, they will find people to staff those jobs. So I am not a big fan of employers talking about "labor shortages". What they mean is "we have this role, and can't afford to pay the market clearing rate for the role. Therefore there is a shortage." This is as much true for a government employer, non-profit employer, or private sector worker, as they are all hiring from the same labor pool, and workers have a choice as to who to work for. Before you say that "no amount of money is enough", just think that if for some reason they can't have the workers be cooks on shore, they can just pay them a vacation for that same shore period. The cooks on shore could then travel, or take a class, or do whatever they want. If you could find cooks who would work on a mix of shore and sea, but not sea only, then rotate the staff and pay the cooks to do nothing. Obviously an extreme example, but I'm giving it to illustrate the point that yes, it does boil down to money in the end. It usually does.

citizenkeen 4y ago
Anytime someone uses the phrase "labor shortage", remind them that what they have is a "salary shortage".
- jacobolus 4y ago
  It’s amazing how often a salary shortage coexists with a significant profit surplus.
  - pooper 4y ago
    Not just that, salary refuses to go up but prices refuses to go down. From https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/01/business/food-prices-profits.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/01/business/food-prices-prof... archived at https://archive.ph/B1cjX https://archive.ph/B1cjX » Although food companies are prominent examples of how rapid inflation is being passed from producers to consumers, the trend is evident across a wide variety of industries. Executives from banks, airlines, hotels, consumer goods companies and other firms have said they are finding that customers have money to spend and can tolerate higher prices. [...] » Over the last year, the price of food eaten at home has soared 13 percent, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, with some items spiking even higher. Cereals and bakery goods are up 16.2 percent from a year ago, closely followed by dairy, which has risen 15.9 percent.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  In this case it might be more literal since line cook was one of the jobs with the highest covid casualty rate. IIRC higher than frontline medical workers in the US.
EdwardDiego 4y ago
Yep, in my country, we have a "labour shortage" in various industries... ...because those industries relied on migrants, offshore seasonal workers, and working holiday visa holders, to maintain staffing levels, at the lowest wages possible, with often shite working conditions - to the point of exploitation - because seasonal workers who paid a broker to get that job, and don't speak English, don't feel able to complain. When Covid kicked the teeth in of these industries addicted to low wage labour, did they re-evaluate their approach and improve the working conditions and wages they offeredto attract domestic workers? Haha no, they just complained about the government restricting international travel during a pandemic, and demanded special treatment. Sucks when the free market sends you signals about your price point.
- bombcar 4y ago
  This is the dirty side of the "open immigration" - both illegal and legal. It's a modern form of indentured servitude trending to slavery.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > This is the dirty side of the "open immigration" - both illegal and legal. At least legal immigrants can be reached by the government and have their rights explained to them in a language they can understand. Unfortunately, most countries don't do that by default, and if people are lucky some sort of NGO (usually unions) steps up. The core problem anyway is a lack of enforcement of labor regulations, first by a lack of employer audits, followed by a subsequent lack of punitive actions against employers found to violate regulations.
  - smcl 4y ago
    If you have a relatively humane set of worker protections in addition to the a straight-forward path to legal immigration, it's nothing like indentured servitude or slavery. It's just ... work.
    - EdwardDiego 4y ago
      Technically yes, but in reality, greed... greed never changes. And immigration regulations that are intended to protect against abuse of the system, are often abused to extort people. E.g., you're from country X, living in a new country, Y, where you've bought a small business. Y is a desirable country to live in if you are from X. Your business is very low margin. You work very long hours to keep afloat. But, an immigration broker also from country X gets in touch. They have many clients back home who would love to be in country Y. They just need a work visa, but the job has to be a) skilled and b) not able to be easily filled by an existing citizen or permanent resident of Y. So here's the deal. The client pays the broker to be introduce to you. The client then agrees to pay you for a job - often there's a lump sum up-front, and often there's ongoing payments made under the table to the employer. You have to create a position that's suitably skilled of course, and you have to prove you couldn't fill the role locally. So your corner store is now recruiting for a "retail and marketing manager", and you placed one advert in the situations vacant in a local newspaper, no-one replied. You are now able to recruit your retail and marketing manager from X, and they can move here knowing that they have a work visa. It's a great deal - your worker got to move from X to Y, and you got an employee who, after their below-table payments to you, is likely working for far below minimum wage. And here's the best bit - if you treat them like crap, and they decide to complain to the authorities, well, given that they knowingly participated in immigration fraud, which you have proof of, they're very likely to be deported and banned from returning. So they have a very strong disincentive to complain, no matter how you treat them. And thus you continue to have a good source of revenue and cheap labour until they've been in the country long enough to apply for residence. And then, gosh well, you'll need another retail and marketing manager, won't you? Who pays a lump-sum upfront, and then kickbacks for two years. Here's some examples from my country: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122467368/vicious-cycle-why-are-some-indian-migrants-so-badly-exploited-in-nz https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122467368/vicious-cycle-why... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/411939/samoan-chief-joseph-auga-matamata-found-guilty-of-human-trafficking-and-slavery-charges https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/411939/samoan-chief-jose... https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123020969/tauranga-man-charged-with-migrant-worker-exploitation-in-the-kiwifruit-industry https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123020969/tauranga-man-char... Fixing this is a hard question - yes, we want workers being exploited to be able to complain, but we also don't want people lying and falsifying documentation to get a visa. So what do you do in these scenarios? Where do you find a balance?
8note 4y ago
Paying people to not work leads people to leave so they can work more to maintain and grow their skills for their next-level-up job. My parents company does that for pilots, and they eventually all quit saying they want to fly more
- sokoloff 4y ago
  If your parents are employing pilots on the treadmill towards 1500 hours where they qualify for an ATP and airline job, I can easily understand that.
- rdtwo 4y ago
  The only jobs that pay for pilots are airlines. Of course they all quit. They would be stupid to stay
- cjrp 4y ago
  Why is the company paying pilots to not fly? Seems like bad business?
  - ilyt 4y ago
    So when they will they won't have to hire

by rsj_hn 4y ago

citizenkeen 4y ago

Anytime someone uses the phrase "labor shortage", remind them that what they have is a "salary shortage".

jacobolus 4y ago
It’s amazing how often a salary shortage coexists with a significant profit surplus.
- pooper 4y ago
  Not just that, salary refuses to go up but prices refuses to go down. From https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/01/business/food-prices-profits.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/01/business/food-prices-prof... archived at https://archive.ph/B1cjX https://archive.ph/B1cjX » Although food companies are prominent examples of how rapid inflation is being passed from producers to consumers, the trend is evident across a wide variety of industries. Executives from banks, airlines, hotels, consumer goods companies and other firms have said they are finding that customers have money to spend and can tolerate higher prices. [...] » Over the last year, the price of food eaten at home has soared 13 percent, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, with some items spiking even higher. Cereals and bakery goods are up 16.2 percent from a year ago, closely followed by dairy, which has risen 15.9 percent.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
In this case it might be more literal since line cook was one of the jobs with the highest covid casualty rate. IIRC higher than frontline medical workers in the US.

EdwardDiego 4y ago

Yep, in my country, we have a "labour shortage" in various industries... ...because those industries relied on migrants, offshore seasonal workers, and working holiday visa holders, to maintain staffing levels, at the lowest wages possible, with often shite working conditions - to the point of exploitation - because seasonal workers who paid a broker to get that job, and don't speak English, don't feel able to complain. When Covid kicked the teeth in of these industries addicted to low wage labour, did they re-evaluate their approach and improve the working conditions and wages they offeredto attract domestic workers? Haha no, they just complained about the government restricting international travel during a pandemic, and demanded special treatment. Sucks when the free market sends you signals about your price point.

bombcar 4y ago
This is the dirty side of the "open immigration" - both illegal and legal. It's a modern form of indentured servitude trending to slavery.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > This is the dirty side of the "open immigration" - both illegal and legal. At least legal immigrants can be reached by the government and have their rights explained to them in a language they can understand. Unfortunately, most countries don't do that by default, and if people are lucky some sort of NGO (usually unions) steps up. The core problem anyway is a lack of enforcement of labor regulations, first by a lack of employer audits, followed by a subsequent lack of punitive actions against employers found to violate regulations.
- smcl 4y ago
  If you have a relatively humane set of worker protections in addition to the a straight-forward path to legal immigration, it's nothing like indentured servitude or slavery. It's just ... work.
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    Technically yes, but in reality, greed... greed never changes. And immigration regulations that are intended to protect against abuse of the system, are often abused to extort people. E.g., you're from country X, living in a new country, Y, where you've bought a small business. Y is a desirable country to live in if you are from X. Your business is very low margin. You work very long hours to keep afloat. But, an immigration broker also from country X gets in touch. They have many clients back home who would love to be in country Y. They just need a work visa, but the job has to be a) skilled and b) not able to be easily filled by an existing citizen or permanent resident of Y. So here's the deal. The client pays the broker to be introduce to you. The client then agrees to pay you for a job - often there's a lump sum up-front, and often there's ongoing payments made under the table to the employer. You have to create a position that's suitably skilled of course, and you have to prove you couldn't fill the role locally. So your corner store is now recruiting for a "retail and marketing manager", and you placed one advert in the situations vacant in a local newspaper, no-one replied. You are now able to recruit your retail and marketing manager from X, and they can move here knowing that they have a work visa. It's a great deal - your worker got to move from X to Y, and you got an employee who, after their below-table payments to you, is likely working for far below minimum wage. And here's the best bit - if you treat them like crap, and they decide to complain to the authorities, well, given that they knowingly participated in immigration fraud, which you have proof of, they're very likely to be deported and banned from returning. So they have a very strong disincentive to complain, no matter how you treat them. And thus you continue to have a good source of revenue and cheap labour until they've been in the country long enough to apply for residence. And then, gosh well, you'll need another retail and marketing manager, won't you? Who pays a lump-sum upfront, and then kickbacks for two years. Here's some examples from my country: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122467368/vicious-cycle-why-are-some-indian-migrants-so-badly-exploited-in-nz https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122467368/vicious-cycle-why... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/411939/samoan-chief-joseph-auga-matamata-found-guilty-of-human-trafficking-and-slavery-charges https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/411939/samoan-chief-jose... https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123020969/tauranga-man-charged-with-migrant-worker-exploitation-in-the-kiwifruit-industry https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123020969/tauranga-man-char... Fixing this is a hard question - yes, we want workers being exploited to be able to complain, but we also don't want people lying and falsifying documentation to get a visa. So what do you do in these scenarios? Where do you find a balance?

8note 4y ago

Paying people to not work leads people to leave so they can work more to maintain and grow their skills for their next-level-up job. My parents company does that for pilots, and they eventually all quit saying they want to fly more

sokoloff 4y ago
If your parents are employing pilots on the treadmill towards 1500 hours where they qualify for an ATP and airline job, I can easily understand that.
rdtwo 4y ago
The only jobs that pay for pilots are airlines. Of course they all quit. They would be stupid to stay
cjrp 4y ago
Why is the company paying pilots to not fly? Seems like bad business?
- ilyt 4y ago
  So when they will they won't have to hire