10 ms·

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

deltasevennine 4y ago
Unlikely. This is more economic rivalry then actual worry that China is going to suddenly flip.
FooBarWidget 4y ago
> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China I'd like to see sources backing up this claim. Huawei for example has 5G patents and research centers outside China. Hualong-1 nuclear plants are exported abroad. Seeing that China is big on business and making money, it makes no sense to keep technology for yourself. There's so much money to be made by selling them!
- hoseja 4y ago
  1. backdoored surveillance 2. belt and road
  - simiones 4y ago
    As odious as that technology is, as far as I know China is a major supplier of surveillance technology to the world's authoritarian governments. Belt and Road is an international infrastructure investment (and direct construction) project, not sure how its related to technology. It's also no different from all other nations' international aid programs, in that it both helps the receiving nation and makes them indebted to the originator.
  - codedokode 4y ago
    And western equipment is totally not backdoored, and has open source hardware and firmware so that anyone can verify it?
- ChemSpider 4y ago
  Just one of many examples: The WIV BSL-4 lab in Wuhan was built as a French-Chinese cooperation (modeled after a similar lab in Lyon, France) with the explicit goal to do joint experiments. But once it was built, the French were kicked out.
  - bigcat12345678 4y ago
    Sources？
    - ChemSpider 4y ago
      Many, e. g. https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/310520/strange-saga-how-france-helped-build-wuhans-top-security-virus-lab https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/310520/strange-sa... FRANCE INVESTIGATION The strange saga of how France helped build Wuhan's top-security virus lab MAY 31, 2020 BY KARL LASKE AND JACQUES MASSEY The maximum-level biosafety laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the first of its kind to be built in China, and has been the centre of huge speculation since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic which originated in that city. The laboratory, which is equipped to handle Class 4 pathogens (P4) including dangerous viruses such as Ebola, was built with the help of French experts and under the guidance of French billionaire businessman Alain Mérieux, despite strong objections by health and defence officials in Paris. Since the laboratory's inauguration by prime minister Bernard Cazeneuve in 2017, however, France has had no supervisory role in the running of the facility and planned cooperation between French researchers and the laboratory has come to a grinding halt.
      - bigcat12345678 4y ago
        > French experts and researchers have no say in the running of the top-level biosafety laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China despite the fact that France helped build the facility and that Paris and Beijing signed an agreement on future cooperation and collaboration, a Mediapart investigation can reveal. > have no say in the running of the top-level biosafety laboratory > Beijing signed an agreement on future cooperation and collaboration These are far from what was claimed by the OP
- natch 4y ago
  It seems to me research centers outside of China are used to recruit willing experts from other companies whose knowledge of proprietary information can then be unethically harvested and absorbed by Huawei.
  - FooBarWidget 4y ago
    That sounds like... How other research centers also work? If you're not hiring someone for their knowledge and experience on a topic, then what are you hiring that person for? And when these people leave, they take their experience at Huawei with them. Now some other company benefits from Huawei's experience. People hire me for my 10 years of DevOps experience so that I can help them implement practices. They don't hire me to reinvent DevOps from first principles without using any of my previous experience. Just what part of hiring people for their experience is "unethical harvesting"? If there's evidence of people being specifically hired to diverge trade secrets of a previous employer, in violation of NDAs, then you'd actually have a case.
adrian_b 4y ago
It would be interesting to see some concrete examples of what is claimed in "Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China." Whenever I search recent research articles about any topic, I see a very large number that are published by China, and which are freely available. The quality of the Chinese research is quite uneven, there are many papers that are just garbage, but there are also many which are surprisingly creative and original, exploring promising alternatives to those that had already been studied by Western research. I frequently see statements from naive Americans that all that the Chinese do is based on copying, but unfortunately for USA, that was true only in the past and it is no longer true today.
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  what is stopping those naive americans from going to china, buying those "stolen and improved but not shared with us legally" products and sell them on their own back home? its not like chinese businesses would sue them or anything so whats the big deal as you say? they copy you, you copy their advances back and you are back in parity.
  - wellthisisgreat 4y ago
    Not everyone wants to break the laws. Even of another country. In China the repercussions for what you described may go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that. This hasn’t applied to doing that in US / Western countries
    - bigcat12345678 4y ago
      > go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that I mean, a few hundreds years ago, the US continent was populated by Savages. They got educated and civilized now. So give China another 1 hundred years. They'll be as civilized as US today. They probably would routinely threaten nukes for countries not practicing the "wholistic democracy" [1]; they'll also cut supply of key components from global supply chain when India is approaching their supremacy; and sanction Vietnam because they dont act like dogies... [1] https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202208/1272926.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202208/1272926.shtml
bigcat12345678 4y ago
> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China Any such actual event happening? I have heard this stated repeatedly, but my Google search reveals no actual reporting, other than the ones where the foreign party voluntarily exited or being forced aware from their own political pressure (that is not from Chinese side).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- natch 4y ago
  Asked and answered. WIV was one.
  - bigcat12345678 4y ago
    Not satisfactory though
captainmuon 4y ago
I think describing China as one monolithic block in that way is problematic and denies the agency of Chinese people. It is tempting to look at the different political system and lump everything together. You have to distinguish between the government, researchers, and Chinese companies. I know many Chinese researchers who are collaborating fairly, and they have very similar interests and - mixed - incentives as western scientists do. It is true that Chinese companies do what you described, I think at some point there was even an offical slogan for it. But this is just as much due to the "capitalist" side as to the "communist" side. I'm pretty sure if an American company was behind technologically they would do the same. I recall Tesla poaching battery and car manufacturing specialists for example. Not saying that is great, but it would be naive to assume they would do otherwise.
- tomp 4y ago
  What agency do Chinese people have?
  - captainmuon 4y ago
    The people have independent ideas and wills - and not a hive mind - is what I'm saying. > China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China. Regardless of what strategy the government is pursuing, I know personally that many Chinese researchers do collaborate on an honest basis. They have to put a lot of effort into dispelling the prejudice that they just want to leech technology for their government.
    - bigcat12345678 4y ago
      Think for a moment how ridiculous it is to assume Chinese individuals have no free mind.

deltasevennine 4y ago

Unlikely. This is more economic rivalry then actual worry that China is going to suddenly flip.

FooBarWidget 4y ago

> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China I'd like to see sources backing up this claim. Huawei for example has 5G patents and research centers outside China. Hualong-1 nuclear plants are exported abroad. Seeing that China is big on business and making money, it makes no sense to keep technology for yourself. There's so much money to be made by selling them!

hoseja 4y ago
1. backdoored surveillance 2. belt and road
- simiones 4y ago
  As odious as that technology is, as far as I know China is a major supplier of surveillance technology to the world's authoritarian governments. Belt and Road is an international infrastructure investment (and direct construction) project, not sure how its related to technology. It's also no different from all other nations' international aid programs, in that it both helps the receiving nation and makes them indebted to the originator.
- codedokode 4y ago
  And western equipment is totally not backdoored, and has open source hardware and firmware so that anyone can verify it?
ChemSpider 4y ago
Just one of many examples: The WIV BSL-4 lab in Wuhan was built as a French-Chinese cooperation (modeled after a similar lab in Lyon, France) with the explicit goal to do joint experiments. But once it was built, the French were kicked out.
- bigcat12345678 4y ago
  Sources？
  - ChemSpider 4y ago
    Many, e. g. https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/310520/strange-saga-how-france-helped-build-wuhans-top-security-virus-lab https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/310520/strange-sa... FRANCE INVESTIGATION The strange saga of how France helped build Wuhan's top-security virus lab MAY 31, 2020 BY KARL LASKE AND JACQUES MASSEY The maximum-level biosafety laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the first of its kind to be built in China, and has been the centre of huge speculation since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic which originated in that city. The laboratory, which is equipped to handle Class 4 pathogens (P4) including dangerous viruses such as Ebola, was built with the help of French experts and under the guidance of French billionaire businessman Alain Mérieux, despite strong objections by health and defence officials in Paris. Since the laboratory's inauguration by prime minister Bernard Cazeneuve in 2017, however, France has had no supervisory role in the running of the facility and planned cooperation between French researchers and the laboratory has come to a grinding halt.
    - bigcat12345678 4y ago
      > French experts and researchers have no say in the running of the top-level biosafety laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China despite the fact that France helped build the facility and that Paris and Beijing signed an agreement on future cooperation and collaboration, a Mediapart investigation can reveal. > have no say in the running of the top-level biosafety laboratory > Beijing signed an agreement on future cooperation and collaboration These are far from what was claimed by the OP
natch 4y ago
It seems to me research centers outside of China are used to recruit willing experts from other companies whose knowledge of proprietary information can then be unethically harvested and absorbed by Huawei.
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  That sounds like... How other research centers also work? If you're not hiring someone for their knowledge and experience on a topic, then what are you hiring that person for? And when these people leave, they take their experience at Huawei with them. Now some other company benefits from Huawei's experience. People hire me for my 10 years of DevOps experience so that I can help them implement practices. They don't hire me to reinvent DevOps from first principles without using any of my previous experience. Just what part of hiring people for their experience is "unethical harvesting"? If there's evidence of people being specifically hired to diverge trade secrets of a previous employer, in violation of NDAs, then you'd actually have a case.

adrian_b 4y ago

It would be interesting to see some concrete examples of what is claimed in "Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China." Whenever I search recent research articles about any topic, I see a very large number that are published by China, and which are freely available. The quality of the Chinese research is quite uneven, there are many papers that are just garbage, but there are also many which are surprisingly creative and original, exploring promising alternatives to those that had already been studied by Western research. I frequently see statements from naive Americans that all that the Chinese do is based on copying, but unfortunately for USA, that was true only in the past and it is no longer true today.

2Gkashmiri 4y ago
what is stopping those naive americans from going to china, buying those "stolen and improved but not shared with us legally" products and sell them on their own back home? its not like chinese businesses would sue them or anything so whats the big deal as you say? they copy you, you copy their advances back and you are back in parity.
- wellthisisgreat 4y ago
  Not everyone wants to break the laws. Even of another country. In China the repercussions for what you described may go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that. This hasn’t applied to doing that in US / Western countries
  - bigcat12345678 4y ago
    > go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that I mean, a few hundreds years ago, the US continent was populated by Savages. They got educated and civilized now. So give China another 1 hundred years. They'll be as civilized as US today. They probably would routinely threaten nukes for countries not practicing the "wholistic democracy" [1]; they'll also cut supply of key components from global supply chain when India is approaching their supremacy; and sanction Vietnam because they dont act like dogies... [1] https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202208/1272926.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202208/1272926.shtml

bigcat12345678 4y ago

> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China Any such actual event happening? I have heard this stated repeatedly, but my Google search reveals no actual reporting, other than the ones where the foreign party voluntarily exited or being forced aware from their own political pressure (that is not from Chinese side).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
natch 4y ago
Asked and answered. WIV was one.
- bigcat12345678 4y ago
  Not satisfactory though

captainmuon 4y ago

I think describing China as one monolithic block in that way is problematic and denies the agency of Chinese people. It is tempting to look at the different political system and lump everything together. You have to distinguish between the government, researchers, and Chinese companies. I know many Chinese researchers who are collaborating fairly, and they have very similar interests and - mixed - incentives as western scientists do. It is true that Chinese companies do what you described, I think at some point there was even an offical slogan for it. But this is just as much due to the "capitalist" side as to the "communist" side. I'm pretty sure if an American company was behind technologically they would do the same. I recall Tesla poaching battery and car manufacturing specialists for example. Not saying that is great, but it would be naive to assume they would do otherwise.

tomp 4y ago
What agency do Chinese people have?
- captainmuon 4y ago
  The people have independent ideas and wills - and not a hive mind - is what I'm saying. > China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China. Regardless of what strategy the government is pursuing, I know personally that many Chinese researchers do collaborate on an honest basis. They have to put a lot of effort into dispelling the prejudice that they just want to leech technology for their government.
  - bigcat12345678 4y ago
    Think for a moment how ridiculous it is to assume Chinese individuals have no free mind.