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So for those wondering why no US collaboration, you can blame republican octogenarian Frank Wolf for introducting the Wolf amendment prohibiting any and all NAS

So for those wondering why no US collaboration, you can blame republican octogenarian Frank Wolf for introducting the Wolf amendment prohibiting any and all NASA collaboration with china that isnt expressly sanctioned by the rest of the geriatrics in congress. he even managed to fuck up the 2013 Kepler Science Conference which resulted in a mass boycott after two chinese scientists were banned. We had every opportunity to collaborate with chinese scientists aboard the ISS before this crap. The man is a traitor to science.

chrononaut 4y ago
> that isnt expressly sanctioned by the rest of the geriatrics in congress Interestingly, you inadvertently (?) demonstrated OPs comment by using the opposing definition from GP.
- skrebbel 4y ago
  I bet it was on purpose and I love it.
jonnybgood 4y ago
It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  Unlikely. This is more economic rivalry then actual worry that China is going to suddenly flip.
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  > Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China I'd like to see sources backing up this claim. Huawei for example has 5G patents and research centers outside China. Hualong-1 nuclear plants are exported abroad. Seeing that China is big on business and making money, it makes no sense to keep technology for yourself. There's so much money to be made by selling them!
  - hoseja 4y ago
    1. backdoored surveillance 2. belt and road
    - simiones 4y ago
      As odious as that technology is, as far as I know China is a major supplier of surveillance technology to the world's authoritarian governments. Belt and Road is an international infrastructure investment (and direct construction) project, not sure how its related to technology. It's also no different from all other nations' international aid programs, in that it both helps the receiving nation and makes them indebted to the originator.
    - codedokode 4y ago
      And western equipment is totally not backdoored, and has open source hardware and firmware so that anyone can verify it?
  - ChemSpider 4y ago
    Just one of many examples: The WIV BSL-4 lab in Wuhan was built as a French-Chinese cooperation (modeled after a similar lab in Lyon, France) with the explicit goal to do joint experiments. But once it was built, the French were kicked out.
    - bigcat12345678 4y ago
      Sources？
      - ChemSpider 4y ago
        Many, e. g. https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/310520/strange-saga-how-france-helped-build-wuhans-top-security-virus-lab https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/310520/strange-sa... FRANCE INVESTIGATION The strange saga of how France helped build Wuhan's top-security virus lab MAY 31, 2020 BY KARL LASKE AND JACQUES MASSEY The maximum-level biosafety laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the first of its kind to be built in China, and has been the centre of huge speculation since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic which originated in that city. The laboratory, which is equipped to handle Class 4 pathogens (P4) including dangerous viruses such as Ebola, was built with the help of French experts and under the guidance of French billionaire businessman Alain Mérieux, despite strong objections by health and defence officials in Paris. Since the laboratory's inauguration by prime minister Bernard Cazeneuve in 2017, however, France has had no supervisory role in the running of the facility and planned cooperation between French researchers and the laboratory has come to a grinding halt.
- adrian_b 4y ago
  It would be interesting to see some concrete examples of what is claimed in "Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China." Whenever I search recent research articles about any topic, I see a very large number that are published by China, and which are freely available. The quality of the Chinese research is quite uneven, there are many papers that are just garbage, but there are also many which are surprisingly creative and original, exploring promising alternatives to those that had already been studied by Western research. I frequently see statements from naive Americans that all that the Chinese do is based on copying, but unfortunately for USA, that was true only in the past and it is no longer true today.
  - 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
    what is stopping those naive americans from going to china, buying those "stolen and improved but not shared with us legally" products and sell them on their own back home? its not like chinese businesses would sue them or anything so whats the big deal as you say? they copy you, you copy their advances back and you are back in parity.
    - wellthisisgreat 4y ago
      Not everyone wants to break the laws. Even of another country. In China the repercussions for what you described may go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that. This hasn’t applied to doing that in US / Western countries
      - bigcat12345678 4y ago
        > go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that I mean, a few hundreds years ago, the US continent was populated by Savages. They got educated and civilized now. So give China another 1 hundred years. They'll be as civilized as US today. They probably would routinely threaten nukes for countries not practicing the "wholistic democracy" [1]; they'll also cut supply of key components from global supply chain when India is approaching their supremacy; and sanction Vietnam because they dont act like dogies... [1] https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202208/1272926.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202208/1272926.shtml
- bigcat12345678 4y ago
  > Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China Any such actual event happening? I have heard this stated repeatedly, but my Google search reveals no actual reporting, other than the ones where the foreign party voluntarily exited or being forced aware from their own political pressure (that is not from Chinese side).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - natch 4y ago
    Asked and answered. WIV was one.
    - bigcat12345678 4y ago
      Not satisfactory though
- captainmuon 4y ago
  I think describing China as one monolithic block in that way is problematic and denies the agency of Chinese people. It is tempting to look at the different political system and lump everything together. You have to distinguish between the government, researchers, and Chinese companies. I know many Chinese researchers who are collaborating fairly, and they have very similar interests and - mixed - incentives as western scientists do. It is true that Chinese companies do what you described, I think at some point there was even an offical slogan for it. But this is just as much due to the "capitalist" side as to the "communist" side. I'm pretty sure if an American company was behind technologically they would do the same. I recall Tesla poaching battery and car manufacturing specialists for example. Not saying that is great, but it would be naive to assume they would do otherwise.
  - tomp 4y ago
    What agency do Chinese people have?
    - captainmuon 4y ago
      The people have independent ideas and wills - and not a hive mind - is what I'm saying. > China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China. Regardless of what strategy the government is pursuing, I know personally that many Chinese researchers do collaborate on an honest basis. They have to put a lot of effort into dispelling the prejudice that they just want to leech technology for their government.
      - bigcat12345678 4y ago
        Think for a moment how ridiculous it is to assume Chinese individuals have no free mind.
philwelch 4y ago
Good for him. Collaborating with the CCP regime is not in the best interest of the US or other Western countries, and in fact, US policy would be better served in the long run by isolating and decoupling from China even more.

chrononaut 4y ago

> that isnt expressly sanctioned by the rest of the geriatrics in congress Interestingly, you inadvertently (?) demonstrated OPs comment by using the opposing definition from GP.

skrebbel 4y ago
I bet it was on purpose and I love it.

jonnybgood 4y ago

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

deltasevennine 4y ago
Unlikely. This is more economic rivalry then actual worry that China is going to suddenly flip.
FooBarWidget 4y ago
> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China I'd like to see sources backing up this claim. Huawei for example has 5G patents and research centers outside China. Hualong-1 nuclear plants are exported abroad. Seeing that China is big on business and making money, it makes no sense to keep technology for yourself. There's so much money to be made by selling them!
- hoseja 4y ago
  1. backdoored surveillance 2. belt and road
  - simiones 4y ago
    As odious as that technology is, as far as I know China is a major supplier of surveillance technology to the world's authoritarian governments. Belt and Road is an international infrastructure investment (and direct construction) project, not sure how its related to technology. It's also no different from all other nations' international aid programs, in that it both helps the receiving nation and makes them indebted to the originator.
  - codedokode 4y ago
    And western equipment is totally not backdoored, and has open source hardware and firmware so that anyone can verify it?
- ChemSpider 4y ago
  Just one of many examples: The WIV BSL-4 lab in Wuhan was built as a French-Chinese cooperation (modeled after a similar lab in Lyon, France) with the explicit goal to do joint experiments. But once it was built, the French were kicked out.
  - bigcat12345678 4y ago
    Sources？
    - ChemSpider 4y ago
      Many, e. g. https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/310520/strange-saga-how-france-helped-build-wuhans-top-security-virus-lab https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/310520/strange-sa... FRANCE INVESTIGATION The strange saga of how France helped build Wuhan's top-security virus lab MAY 31, 2020 BY KARL LASKE AND JACQUES MASSEY The maximum-level biosafety laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the first of its kind to be built in China, and has been the centre of huge speculation since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic which originated in that city. The laboratory, which is equipped to handle Class 4 pathogens (P4) including dangerous viruses such as Ebola, was built with the help of French experts and under the guidance of French billionaire businessman Alain Mérieux, despite strong objections by health and defence officials in Paris. Since the laboratory's inauguration by prime minister Bernard Cazeneuve in 2017, however, France has had no supervisory role in the running of the facility and planned cooperation between French researchers and the laboratory has come to a grinding halt.
adrian_b 4y ago
It would be interesting to see some concrete examples of what is claimed in "Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China." Whenever I search recent research articles about any topic, I see a very large number that are published by China, and which are freely available. The quality of the Chinese research is quite uneven, there are many papers that are just garbage, but there are also many which are surprisingly creative and original, exploring promising alternatives to those that had already been studied by Western research. I frequently see statements from naive Americans that all that the Chinese do is based on copying, but unfortunately for USA, that was true only in the past and it is no longer true today.
- 2Gkashmiri 4y ago
  what is stopping those naive americans from going to china, buying those "stolen and improved but not shared with us legally" products and sell them on their own back home? its not like chinese businesses would sue them or anything so whats the big deal as you say? they copy you, you copy their advances back and you are back in parity.
  - wellthisisgreat 4y ago
    Not everyone wants to break the laws. Even of another country. In China the repercussions for what you described may go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that. This hasn’t applied to doing that in US / Western countries
    - bigcat12345678 4y ago
      > go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that I mean, a few hundreds years ago, the US continent was populated by Savages. They got educated and civilized now. So give China another 1 hundred years. They'll be as civilized as US today. They probably would routinely threaten nukes for countries not practicing the "wholistic democracy" [1]; they'll also cut supply of key components from global supply chain when India is approaching their supremacy; and sanction Vietnam because they dont act like dogies... [1] https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202208/1272926.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202208/1272926.shtml
bigcat12345678 4y ago
> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China Any such actual event happening? I have heard this stated repeatedly, but my Google search reveals no actual reporting, other than the ones where the foreign party voluntarily exited or being forced aware from their own political pressure (that is not from Chinese side).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- natch 4y ago
  Asked and answered. WIV was one.
  - bigcat12345678 4y ago
    Not satisfactory though
captainmuon 4y ago
I think describing China as one monolithic block in that way is problematic and denies the agency of Chinese people. It is tempting to look at the different political system and lump everything together. You have to distinguish between the government, researchers, and Chinese companies. I know many Chinese researchers who are collaborating fairly, and they have very similar interests and - mixed - incentives as western scientists do. It is true that Chinese companies do what you described, I think at some point there was even an offical slogan for it. But this is just as much due to the "capitalist" side as to the "communist" side. I'm pretty sure if an American company was behind technologically they would do the same. I recall Tesla poaching battery and car manufacturing specialists for example. Not saying that is great, but it would be naive to assume they would do otherwise.
- tomp 4y ago
  What agency do Chinese people have?
  - captainmuon 4y ago
    The people have independent ideas and wills - and not a hive mind - is what I'm saying. > China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China. Regardless of what strategy the government is pursuing, I know personally that many Chinese researchers do collaborate on an honest basis. They have to put a lot of effort into dispelling the prejudice that they just want to leech technology for their government.
    - bigcat12345678 4y ago
      Think for a moment how ridiculous it is to assume Chinese individuals have no free mind.

philwelch 4y ago

Good for him. Collaborating with the CCP regime is not in the best interest of the US or other Western countries, and in fact, US policy would be better served in the long run by isolating and decoupling from China even more.