4 ms·

Let's be real. Thinking is not the most pleasurable thing in the world. A certain class of people like to believe this but they're lying to themselves.

metadat 4y ago
Low-brow casual dismissals and blanket generalizations such as this one make for boring and un-curious conversations.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  Someone's claim isn't necessarily factual. People can lie to themselves, or lie about themselves to others. I consider it a fair point of discussion.
- OkayPhysicist 4y ago
  Because it's not actually anyone's truth. If "thinking" was more pleasurable than, say, skydiving, or playing with a baby, or a drug-fueled orgy, than you'd see a lot more people dropping out of society to go be hermits than anything else. Instead, we look around, and see that vices fall into a handful of categories: trick the brain into making the feel-good chemicals (risk-taking, sex, good food) or sticking the feel-good chemicals in there yourself (drugs, booze). I'm not going to assert that I know the greatest pleasure possible. Someone's probably out here stretched out on MDMA while cliff-jumping into a volcano or some likewise truly insane shit. But I can assert that that person is experiencing pleasure unfathomable by anyone who asserts that the greatest pleasure is "thinking".
  - zooch 4y ago
    I don't know if it's so cut-and-dry. By that logic why doesn't everybody just do amphetamines all day. Probably some integral of pleasure is part of the equation, and it depends on you preference for pleasure distribution. But maybe I'm blurring the line between pleasure and fulfillment.
    - deltasevennine 4y ago
      The brain is made up of modules and happiness in essence comes from what can be characterized as two different modules. For alignment both modules need to register happiness. The animistic or instinctual side of happiness triggered by drugs is not purely a module but it can be encapsulated into a concept called the the mesolimbic dopamine pathway. This pathway can be mechanically manipulated to make you feel a certain portion of happiness via drugs sex or the natural secretion of dopamine. The thing about this module is that it lives separately from another module called the neocortex. The neocortex encompasses the higher functionality of your brain with things like higher order thoughts, perception and consciousness. The unique thing about the neocortex is that it can self actualize. It can see signals being sent by other parts of the brain and it can override or interpret those signals as false. This is what happens when you do something like exercise. One part of your brain tells you you're tired, but your neocortex overrides this and forces you to continue because you're aware that the feeling is an illusion. Exercise is actually healthy. For someone to feel truly happy the mesolimbic dopamine pathway and the neocortex need to be in alignment. The dopamine hit must register AND the neocortex must validate that feeling as well. Signals of happiness from one module but not the other register as sort of an invalid false happiness. For example when you're an addict and you're doing heroin the reward pathway sends a signal, but the neocortex denies it. The addict is generally unhappy even though he gets "high" all the time. For the parent poster, the neocortex is telling himself he's happy by "thinking" but there's no dopamine hit from the mesolimbic pathway. The in-congruence from both modules in the brain form a happiness that isn't quite real. To truly be happy you need both. Also note that the brain additionally develops tolerance to dopamine so any feeling of happiness is relatively fleeting. You need to use different stimuli and go through long periods of "no dopamine" to feel happy. Humans are biologically designed this way by evolution. I'm sorry to tell you this, because in general being aware of all of this generally makes people less happy. Ignorance is part of what makes all of this work, because it is your neocortex that is determining all of this. Knowledge of this influences how your neocortex chooses to override certain signals from the mesolimbic pathway... it's all very very meta.
      - zooch 4y ago
        No need to be sorry, I'm aware we answer to our biology (not that I have as deep of an understanding of it as you). We may be splitting hairs because this stemmed from a comment saying thinking is the most pleasurable thing in the world and you said anyone who thinks that way is lying to themselves. Through your biological lens I have no choice but to agree, the thing that is most pleasurable in the world is mesolimbic dopamine pathway and the neocortex alignment (or so I'm told). But through a conversational lens I guess it's all how you get there. And thinking->problem solving->success is a plausible path to get there which is why I disagree with your statement that they are lying to themselves, ignoring the existential truth that we are always lying to ourselves.
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  well you're wrong. My statement was categorically true. And if you follow the thread I reveal highly informative knowledge about it all. Your comment here is the one that is a casual dismissal and completely incorrect blanket generalization. Nothing is more casual then reciting the canned HN rules and not investigating further.
OkayPhysicist 4y ago
Unless you classify "soaking in chemicals specifically designed to trick your brain into forming the feel-good chemicals" as "thinking".
- taneq 4y ago
  It’s not a trick, though. Feel-good chemicals are feel-good chemicals.
  - deltasevennine 4y ago
    It sort of is a trick, yet it isn't: I elucidate what's going on here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33430120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33430120
taneq 4y ago
Or maybe different things are pleasurable to different people?
zooch 4y ago
I see where this comment is coming from and partially agree with it. A thought experiment I've put myself through is would I still be pursuing software if I has unlimited access to sex, drugs and entertaining people were magnetically attracted to me. I don't know the answer to that question, but I've had moments of satiation with regards to those things and I end up learning and/or thinking deeply - and in those moments it is the most pleasurable thing. This is probably different for everyone because after being satiated being alone and thinking is what I like to do. I've also completely stopped drinking for similar reasons as the grandparent comment.
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  It's mostly the same for everyone. Brains are mechanically hardwired according to evolution. And that is mostly what dictates what makes us happy. It's actually the scientific conclusion if you "think" about it. But it's more then just drugs, sex and fame. Your children, the love of your wife, friends. That sort of thing can make you happy. Just thinking though typically does not make anyone happy, and this can be verified. Happiness is associated with endorphins and part of your brain lighting up in an MRI. Also if you "think" about it even further. If humans can actually "think" themselves into happiness, a lot of the stresses of the real world would magically disappear. Survival of the fittest does not allow this. A content human is not one positioned to compete and survive. We are wired to never be fully satiated, never to be happy for long. Our brains give us a taste of happiness so that we can spend most of our lives working to chase it. Because an unsatisfied person is a competitive person and that makes him evolutionarily more fit. Being fully aware of our evolutionary nature actually hinders survival. Nature wants us to live in an illusion thinking we're chasing a goal with an endpoint that equates to contentment and happiness. If you "think" too much, as I have, you see past the illusion and you're now less likely to play the "game" so to say. What I realized from "thinking" too much is that it actually makes you MORE unhappy. It makes you realize the horrible truth of most things and the pointlessness of many other things. No offense to parent but what I see from his statement is basically someone who hasn't thought deeply about certain things too much.
  - zooch 4y ago

metadat 4y ago

Low-brow casual dismissals and blanket generalizations such as this one make for boring and un-curious conversations.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
Someone's claim isn't necessarily factual. People can lie to themselves, or lie about themselves to others. I consider it a fair point of discussion.
OkayPhysicist 4y ago
Because it's not actually anyone's truth. If "thinking" was more pleasurable than, say, skydiving, or playing with a baby, or a drug-fueled orgy, than you'd see a lot more people dropping out of society to go be hermits than anything else. Instead, we look around, and see that vices fall into a handful of categories: trick the brain into making the feel-good chemicals (risk-taking, sex, good food) or sticking the feel-good chemicals in there yourself (drugs, booze). I'm not going to assert that I know the greatest pleasure possible. Someone's probably out here stretched out on MDMA while cliff-jumping into a volcano or some likewise truly insane shit. But I can assert that that person is experiencing pleasure unfathomable by anyone who asserts that the greatest pleasure is "thinking".
- zooch 4y ago
  I don't know if it's so cut-and-dry. By that logic why doesn't everybody just do amphetamines all day. Probably some integral of pleasure is part of the equation, and it depends on you preference for pleasure distribution. But maybe I'm blurring the line between pleasure and fulfillment.
  - deltasevennine 4y ago
    The brain is made up of modules and happiness in essence comes from what can be characterized as two different modules. For alignment both modules need to register happiness. The animistic or instinctual side of happiness triggered by drugs is not purely a module but it can be encapsulated into a concept called the the mesolimbic dopamine pathway. This pathway can be mechanically manipulated to make you feel a certain portion of happiness via drugs sex or the natural secretion of dopamine. The thing about this module is that it lives separately from another module called the neocortex. The neocortex encompasses the higher functionality of your brain with things like higher order thoughts, perception and consciousness. The unique thing about the neocortex is that it can self actualize. It can see signals being sent by other parts of the brain and it can override or interpret those signals as false. This is what happens when you do something like exercise. One part of your brain tells you you're tired, but your neocortex overrides this and forces you to continue because you're aware that the feeling is an illusion. Exercise is actually healthy. For someone to feel truly happy the mesolimbic dopamine pathway and the neocortex need to be in alignment. The dopamine hit must register AND the neocortex must validate that feeling as well. Signals of happiness from one module but not the other register as sort of an invalid false happiness. For example when you're an addict and you're doing heroin the reward pathway sends a signal, but the neocortex denies it. The addict is generally unhappy even though he gets "high" all the time. For the parent poster, the neocortex is telling himself he's happy by "thinking" but there's no dopamine hit from the mesolimbic pathway. The in-congruence from both modules in the brain form a happiness that isn't quite real. To truly be happy you need both. Also note that the brain additionally develops tolerance to dopamine so any feeling of happiness is relatively fleeting. You need to use different stimuli and go through long periods of "no dopamine" to feel happy. Humans are biologically designed this way by evolution. I'm sorry to tell you this, because in general being aware of all of this generally makes people less happy. Ignorance is part of what makes all of this work, because it is your neocortex that is determining all of this. Knowledge of this influences how your neocortex chooses to override certain signals from the mesolimbic pathway... it's all very very meta.
    - zooch 4y ago
      No need to be sorry, I'm aware we answer to our biology (not that I have as deep of an understanding of it as you). We may be splitting hairs because this stemmed from a comment saying thinking is the most pleasurable thing in the world and you said anyone who thinks that way is lying to themselves. Through your biological lens I have no choice but to agree, the thing that is most pleasurable in the world is mesolimbic dopamine pathway and the neocortex alignment (or so I'm told). But through a conversational lens I guess it's all how you get there. And thinking->problem solving->success is a plausible path to get there which is why I disagree with your statement that they are lying to themselves, ignoring the existential truth that we are always lying to ourselves.
deltasevennine 4y ago
well you're wrong. My statement was categorically true. And if you follow the thread I reveal highly informative knowledge about it all. Your comment here is the one that is a casual dismissal and completely incorrect blanket generalization. Nothing is more casual then reciting the canned HN rules and not investigating further.

OkayPhysicist 4y ago

Unless you classify "soaking in chemicals specifically designed to trick your brain into forming the feel-good chemicals" as "thinking".

taneq 4y ago
It’s not a trick, though. Feel-good chemicals are feel-good chemicals.
- deltasevennine 4y ago
  It sort of is a trick, yet it isn't: I elucidate what's going on here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33430120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33430120

taneq 4y ago

Or maybe different things are pleasurable to different people?

zooch 4y ago

I see where this comment is coming from and partially agree with it. A thought experiment I've put myself through is would I still be pursuing software if I has unlimited access to sex, drugs and entertaining people were magnetically attracted to me. I don't know the answer to that question, but I've had moments of satiation with regards to those things and I end up learning and/or thinking deeply - and in those moments it is the most pleasurable thing. This is probably different for everyone because after being satiated being alone and thinking is what I like to do. I've also completely stopped drinking for similar reasons as the grandparent comment.

deltasevennine 4y ago
It's mostly the same for everyone. Brains are mechanically hardwired according to evolution. And that is mostly what dictates what makes us happy. It's actually the scientific conclusion if you "think" about it. But it's more then just drugs, sex and fame. Your children, the love of your wife, friends. That sort of thing can make you happy. Just thinking though typically does not make anyone happy, and this can be verified. Happiness is associated with endorphins and part of your brain lighting up in an MRI. Also if you "think" about it even further. If humans can actually "think" themselves into happiness, a lot of the stresses of the real world would magically disappear. Survival of the fittest does not allow this. A content human is not one positioned to compete and survive. We are wired to never be fully satiated, never to be happy for long. Our brains give us a taste of happiness so that we can spend most of our lives working to chase it. Because an unsatisfied person is a competitive person and that makes him evolutionarily more fit. Being fully aware of our evolutionary nature actually hinders survival. Nature wants us to live in an illusion thinking we're chasing a goal with an endpoint that equates to contentment and happiness. If you "think" too much, as I have, you see past the illusion and you're now less likely to play the "game" so to say. What I realized from "thinking" too much is that it actually makes you MORE unhappy. It makes you realize the horrible truth of most things and the pointlessness of many other things. No offense to parent but what I see from his statement is basically someone who hasn't thought deeply about certain things too much.
- zooch 4y ago