5 ms·

Never got why camera manufactures never followed the phones. Like Live photo,and automatic hdr. Can we get rid of the shutter?

by adrr 4y ago

emkoemko 4y ago
i am glad they don't but in any case what is live photo? automatic HDR? well shoot a bracket +- certain EV ? get rid of the shutter? would need a global shutter unless you like rolling shutter look, phone sensors are tiny they can have fast enough readout vs a 35mm or larger
FireBeyond 4y ago
> Can we get rid of the shutter? That's a challenge, I think. Take an R5 (only because I'm most familiar with it). 47 megapixels, 12 bpp 211.5MB, maximum shutter speed of 1/8000. In other words, you need to be able to pull data off the sensor (and to be clear, there's parallelization available, I just don't know what) at a global rate of 1.6TB/s.
- adrr 4y ago
  They have global shutter sensors around the 12 megapixel level. They could split the sensor up into different processing paths. Do these 200 megapixel phone camera sensors have really bad rolling sensor issues? They are using electronic rolling shutters like your R5 when in silent mode or whatever canon calls it now.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - FireBeyond 4y ago
    What 200 mp phone camera sensors? The iPhone 14 is closer to a 12MP digital camera (quad bayer 48 million sensors). And from what I recall, 8 or maybe 10 bit. So in comparison to the 211MB of sensor data coming off the R5, there's 36 to 45MB of data coming off the phone camera. And I believe the 14's max shutter speed is 1/1000, so there's up to 35 times less data needing to be read off the sensor (45GB/s versus 1.6TB/s) And I'm sure there is multiple processing paths - I just don't know the fine details about how that raw data is slurped off the sensor.
    - adrr 4y ago
      https://semiconductor.samsung.com/image-sensor/mobile-image-sensor/isocell-hp1/ https://semiconductor.samsung.com/image-sensor/mobile-image-...
- hef19898 4y ago
  The Z9 has an electronic shutter, and fast one at that. So prepare to see that tech to hit lower tier mirrorless cameras in the next years. Not sure what I'd need frame rates above 100 for stills so, but that's just me, because it sure is cool.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    My 2016 olympus pen-f, which wasn't exactly ground-breaking technology when it came out, already had an electronic shutter that worked with the full resolution of the sensor. It's a 20 MP micro 4/3 sensor - so 1/4 the surface area of "full-frame".
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Just realized, the Nikon 1 we got for Christmas for my daughter seems to have one as well... Need to test that! Still, we look at a 10 MP sensor smaller in size than a DX. Heck, the more I look at the Nikon 1 series, the more I realize to ehat extend it served as a mirrorless test bed for Nikon.
      - vladvasiliu 4y ago
        Do you expect the physical size of the sensor to have a bigger influence on this than the resolution?
        hef19898 4y ago
        Depends on the sensor, doesn't it? The more dynamic range, the more data a sensor is collecting. Edit: I should compare file size, usong the same settings, between a D700 and D300. Same MP, same camera basically, one being FF and one being DX. Or someone with more knowledge on sensors and digital cameras can answer the question.
nsriv 4y ago
Nikon Z9 eliminated it this past year, my understanding is that going shutterless is largely a function of having fast enough readout over a large sensor size to mitigate rolling shutter.

Never got why camera manufactures never followed the phones. Like Live photo,and automatic hdr. Can we get rid of the shutter?

by adrr 4y ago

Never got why camera manufactures never followed the phones. Like Live photo,and automatic hdr. Can we get rid of the shutter?

emkoemko 4y ago

i am glad they don't but in any case what is live photo? automatic HDR? well shoot a bracket +- certain EV ? get rid of the shutter? would need a global shutter unless you like rolling shutter look, phone sensors are tiny they can have fast enough readout vs a 35mm or larger

FireBeyond 4y ago

> Can we get rid of the shutter? That's a challenge, I think. Take an R5 (only because I'm most familiar with it). 47 megapixels, 12 bpp 211.5MB, maximum shutter speed of 1/8000. In other words, you need to be able to pull data off the sensor (and to be clear, there's parallelization available, I just don't know what) at a global rate of 1.6TB/s.

adrr 4y ago
They have global shutter sensors around the 12 megapixel level. They could split the sensor up into different processing paths. Do these 200 megapixel phone camera sensors have really bad rolling sensor issues? They are using electronic rolling shutters like your R5 when in silent mode or whatever canon calls it now.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  What 200 mp phone camera sensors? The iPhone 14 is closer to a 12MP digital camera (quad bayer 48 million sensors). And from what I recall, 8 or maybe 10 bit. So in comparison to the 211MB of sensor data coming off the R5, there's 36 to 45MB of data coming off the phone camera. And I believe the 14's max shutter speed is 1/1000, so there's up to 35 times less data needing to be read off the sensor (45GB/s versus 1.6TB/s) And I'm sure there is multiple processing paths - I just don't know the fine details about how that raw data is slurped off the sensor.
  - adrr 4y ago
    https://semiconductor.samsung.com/image-sensor/mobile-image-sensor/isocell-hp1/ https://semiconductor.samsung.com/image-sensor/mobile-image-...
hef19898 4y ago
The Z9 has an electronic shutter, and fast one at that. So prepare to see that tech to hit lower tier mirrorless cameras in the next years. Not sure what I'd need frame rates above 100 for stills so, but that's just me, because it sure is cool.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  My 2016 olympus pen-f, which wasn't exactly ground-breaking technology when it came out, already had an electronic shutter that worked with the full resolution of the sensor. It's a 20 MP micro 4/3 sensor - so 1/4 the surface area of "full-frame".
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Just realized, the Nikon 1 we got for Christmas for my daughter seems to have one as well... Need to test that! Still, we look at a 10 MP sensor smaller in size than a DX. Heck, the more I look at the Nikon 1 series, the more I realize to ehat extend it served as a mirrorless test bed for Nikon.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      Do you expect the physical size of the sensor to have a bigger influence on this than the resolution?
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Depends on the sensor, doesn't it? The more dynamic range, the more data a sensor is collecting. Edit: I should compare file size, usong the same settings, between a D700 and D300. Same MP, same camera basically, one being FF and one being DX. Or someone with more knowledge on sensors and digital cameras can answer the question.

nsriv 4y ago

Nikon Z9 eliminated it this past year, my understanding is that going shutterless is largely a function of having fast enough readout over a large sensor size to mitigate rolling shutter.