5 ms·

There are already laws against Admin assistants from taking full customer contact lists from one job to another. You don't need non-competes to enforce that.

lazide 4y ago
Really, which laws are those? The only ones I’m aware of would be trade secret laws, but they’re dubiously applicable to bare customer contact lists. You can make contractual restrictions of course (company property), but good luck being able to prove they actually took it unless they’re really dumb. Merely contacting all, or many, customers for instance wouldn’t prove it. Being able to show they work for competitor x is easy, however, as is showing they’re pursuing customers in the same space.
- jahewson 4y ago
  lol, no. Confidential business information is an area heavily protected by law. Customer lists are the canonical example. It’s much easier to win this kind of civil suit than a criminal case. The court can absolutely crush a business that is founded in this manner to compensate the former employer.
  - JackFr 4y ago
    Then why didn't Dunder Mifflin sue the Michael Scott Paper Company?
    - dpkirchner 4y ago
      Because they didn't reach out to the very real lawyers at Boston Legal.
    - lovich 4y ago
      Assuming you were asking seriously, its a comedy show that was not trying to accurately portray how businesses run.
      - JackFr 4y ago
        Really?
        lovich 4y ago
        Well I guess that’s what I get for giving you the benefit of the doubt
  - lazide 4y ago
    Then surely you’ll have no issues providing a cite of the relevant criminal code?
    - jahewson 4y ago
      I think you missed the “civil suit” part. Common law business torts are not found in statute.
      - lazide 4y ago
        No, I didn’t miss it. You’re moving the goalposts. That something is a civil tort doesn’t mean it’s a criminal offense (what is generally referred to as ‘illegal’). Trade secret theft is illegal. But trade secrets have a specific definition which can pretty much never plausibly include a list of customers.
    - PeterisP 4y ago
      Criminal code is specific to jurisdiction, in California this would probably be the most relevant section - https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-499c.html https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-499c.html . Whether a customer list is a trade secret depends on a bunch of factors in that state's (or countries) trade secret laws (the penal code is just a fraction of them) but in general a mere list of names and telephone numbers likely will not qualify, but a list that includes their buying habits or pricing of current contracts likely will.
      - lazide 4y ago
        Yeah no. From your link ‘9) “Trade secret” means information, including a formula, pattern, compilation, program, device, method, technique, or process, that: (A) Derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to the public or to other persons who can obtain economic value from its disclosure or use; and (B) Is the subject of efforts that are reasonable under the circumstances to maintain its secrecy.’ Pretty hard to imagine a customer list meeting any of those criteria.
hedora 4y ago
Specifically, you can't take trade secrets from one employer to the next. Customer contact lists are just one example of this.
- lazide 4y ago
  Trade secrets have a very specific definition, and a mere list of contact information that is already likely public in an unfocused way (aka contact lists) almost certainly doesn’t qualify. Neither would a list of company names, etc. That information however IS highly valuable, especially paired with knowledge of how a company is doing sales, how it is positioning itself internally strategy wise, etc. some of those things could be trade secrets, if adequately protected, but almost no one I know would meet such a bar with how they handle it. It would be at most confidential information, and could count as a NDA violation, but would be difficult to prove unless someone was really sloppy.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    The idea of a client or customer list being public information is profoundly ludicrous. It’s the canonical example, as another commenter put it.
    - lazide 4y ago
      I never said it was public information. I saw it might be, in some cases, a collection of otherwise public information. As to if it could be protected as a trade secret depends entirely on how it is stored, secured, what it contains, and who is given access to it. But very unlikely. It has an actual definition [https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trade_secret https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trade_secret] As to if someone could sue someone else for damages related to breach of an otherwise valid contractual obligation, then of course. As to if such a lawsuit would be successful will of course depend on a lot of factors, including if that obligation is valid under law, if anyone can show proof it occurred (and wasn’t say someone ‘using their extensive personal connections in the industry’), etc. But that is an expensive, time consuming, and ultimately shitty time in court with few guarantees unless someone was really sloppy.

lazide 4y ago

Really, which laws are those? The only ones I’m aware of would be trade secret laws, but they’re dubiously applicable to bare customer contact lists. You can make contractual restrictions of course (company property), but good luck being able to prove they actually took it unless they’re really dumb. Merely contacting all, or many, customers for instance wouldn’t prove it. Being able to show they work for competitor x is easy, however, as is showing they’re pursuing customers in the same space.

jahewson 4y ago
lol, no. Confidential business information is an area heavily protected by law. Customer lists are the canonical example. It’s much easier to win this kind of civil suit than a criminal case. The court can absolutely crush a business that is founded in this manner to compensate the former employer.
- JackFr 4y ago
  Then why didn't Dunder Mifflin sue the Michael Scott Paper Company?
  - dpkirchner 4y ago
    Because they didn't reach out to the very real lawyers at Boston Legal.
  - lovich 4y ago
    Assuming you were asking seriously, its a comedy show that was not trying to accurately portray how businesses run.
    - JackFr 4y ago
      Really?
      - lovich 4y ago
        Well I guess that’s what I get for giving you the benefit of the doubt
- lazide 4y ago
  Then surely you’ll have no issues providing a cite of the relevant criminal code?
  - jahewson 4y ago
    I think you missed the “civil suit” part. Common law business torts are not found in statute.
    - lazide 4y ago
      No, I didn’t miss it. You’re moving the goalposts. That something is a civil tort doesn’t mean it’s a criminal offense (what is generally referred to as ‘illegal’). Trade secret theft is illegal. But trade secrets have a specific definition which can pretty much never plausibly include a list of customers.
  - PeterisP 4y ago
    Criminal code is specific to jurisdiction, in California this would probably be the most relevant section - https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-499c.html https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-499c.html . Whether a customer list is a trade secret depends on a bunch of factors in that state's (or countries) trade secret laws (the penal code is just a fraction of them) but in general a mere list of names and telephone numbers likely will not qualify, but a list that includes their buying habits or pricing of current contracts likely will.
    - lazide 4y ago
      Yeah no. From your link ‘9) “Trade secret” means information, including a formula, pattern, compilation, program, device, method, technique, or process, that: (A) Derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to the public or to other persons who can obtain economic value from its disclosure or use; and (B) Is the subject of efforts that are reasonable under the circumstances to maintain its secrecy.’ Pretty hard to imagine a customer list meeting any of those criteria.

hedora 4y ago

Specifically, you can't take trade secrets from one employer to the next. Customer contact lists are just one example of this.

lazide 4y ago
Trade secrets have a very specific definition, and a mere list of contact information that is already likely public in an unfocused way (aka contact lists) almost certainly doesn’t qualify. Neither would a list of company names, etc. That information however IS highly valuable, especially paired with knowledge of how a company is doing sales, how it is positioning itself internally strategy wise, etc. some of those things could be trade secrets, if adequately protected, but almost no one I know would meet such a bar with how they handle it. It would be at most confidential information, and could count as a NDA violation, but would be difficult to prove unless someone was really sloppy.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  The idea of a client or customer list being public information is profoundly ludicrous. It’s the canonical example, as another commenter put it.
  - lazide 4y ago
    I never said it was public information. I saw it might be, in some cases, a collection of otherwise public information. As to if it could be protected as a trade secret depends entirely on how it is stored, secured, what it contains, and who is given access to it. But very unlikely. It has an actual definition [https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trade_secret https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trade_secret] As to if someone could sue someone else for damages related to breach of an otherwise valid contractual obligation, then of course. As to if such a lawsuit would be successful will of course depend on a lot of factors, including if that obligation is valid under law, if anyone can show proof it occurred (and wasn’t say someone ‘using their extensive personal connections in the industry’), etc. But that is an expensive, time consuming, and ultimately shitty time in court with few guarantees unless someone was really sloppy.