7 ms·

unless you are in fact a living and breathing cyborg [in which case, congratulations] , the wet work inside your head is not analogous to the neural networks th

unless you are in fact a living and breathing cyborg [in which case, congratulations] , the wet work inside your head is not analogous to the neural networks that are producing these images in any but the most loosely poetic sense.

idiotsecant 4y ago
No? The mechanisms are different but the underlying idea is the same - identify important features and replicate those features in new context. If an AI identifies those features quickly or if I identify them over a lifetime what's the difference? If I so that you might say my work is derivative but you won't due me. Why is it different if an AI does it?
- DenisM 4y ago
  This comment answers your questions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33425414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33425414
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    Not particularly. Parent post is not concerned with or making any claims to special knowledge of the internal details of the modelling in the mind or in the machine, only the output.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > The mechanisms are different but the underlying idea is the same no. they are the same as asking a person to say a number between 1 and 6, then asking the same question to a dice and concluding that men and dice work the same. > identify important features and replicate those features in new context untrue if you think that that's what people do, obviously you can conclude that AI and humans are similar. But people don't identify features, people first of all learn how to replicate - mechanically - the strokes, using the same tools as the original artists until they are able to do it, most of the time people fail and reiterate the process until they find something they are actually very good at and only after that the good ones develop their own style. based either on some artistic style or some artistic meaning. But the first difference we learn here is that humans can fail to replicate something and still become renown artists. An AI cannot do that. Not on its own. For example, many probably already know, but Michelangelo was a sculptor. He was proficient as a painter too, but painting wasn't his strongest skill. So artists, first of all, are creators, not mere replicators, in many different forms, they are not good at everything in the same way, but their knowledge percolates in other fields related to theirs: if you need to make preparatory drawings for a sculpture, you need to be good at drawing and probably painting (lights, shadows, mood, expressions, are all fundamental for a good sculpture) Secondly, the features artists derive from other art pieces are not the technical ones, those needed to make an exact replica of the original, but those that make it special. For example, in the case of Michelangelo, the Pietà has some features that an AI would surely miss. First of all the way he shaped the marble that was unheard of, it doesn't mean much if you don't contextualize the opera and immerse it in the historical period it was created. An AI could think that Michelangelo and Canova were contemporary, while they were separated by 3 centuries, which make a lot of difference in practice and in spirit. But more importantly, Michelangelo's Pietà is out of proportion, he could not make the two figures in the correct scale, proving that even a genius like he was could not easily create a faithful reproduction of two adults one in the lap of the other, with the tools of the 16th century. The Virgin Mary is very, very young, which was at odds with her role as a grieving mother and, the most important of them all, the Christ figure is not suffering, because Michelangelo did not want to depict death. An AI would assume that those are all features of Michelangelo's way of sculpting, but in reality it's the result of a mix of complexity of the opera, time when it was created, quality and technology of the tools used and the artist intentions, which makes the opera unique and, ultimately, irreproducible. If you use an AI to reproduce Michelangelo, everybody would notice, because it's literally something a complete noob or someone with a very bad taste would do. So to not say the difference, you should copy the works of lesser known artists, making it even more unethical.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    respectfully, you're raising a whole lot of arguments here that had nothing to do with any point I was raising and doesn't seem to be moving this discussion forward in any significant way. The point of this subthread thread was a user saying the following: >But if I train my own neural network inside my skull using some artist's style, that's ok? This post and others uses a lot of flowery language to point out that we train artificial neural networks and real neural networks in different ways. OK, great. I don't think anyone is saying that's not true. What I am saying is that it's irrelevant. If I am an exceptional imitator of the style of Jackson Pollock and i make a bunch of paintings that are very much in that style but clearly not his work I'm not going to be sued. My work will be labeled, rightfully so, as derivative but I have the right to sell it because it's not the same thing. Is that somehow more acceptable because I can only do it slowly and at a low volume? What if I start an institute whose sole purpose is training others to make Jackson Pollock-like paintings? What if I skip the people and make a machine that makes a similar quality of paintings with a similarly derivative style? Is that somehow immoral / illegal? Why? There's a whole lot of hand-wavey logic going on in this thread about context and opera and special human magic that only humans can possibly do and that somehow makes it immoral for an AI to do it. I am yet to see a simple, succinct argument of why that is the case.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      > This post and others uses a lot of flowery language to point out that we train artificial neural networks and real neural networks in different ways. OK, great. I don't think anyone is saying that's not true. What I am saying is that it's irrelevant Maybe I was too aulic. The point is: you don't train "your artificial intelligence", because you're not an artificial intelligence, you train your whole self, that is a system, a very complex system. So you can think in terms of "I don't like death, I don't want to display death" You can learn how to paint using your feet, if you have no hands. You can be blind and still paint and enjoy it! An AI cannot think of "not displaying death" in someone's face, not even if you command it to do it, because it doesn't mean anything, out of context. > Jackson Pollock Jackson Pollock is the classic example to explain the concept: of course you can make the same paintings Jackson Pollock made. But you'll never be Jackson Pollock, because that trick works only the first time, if you are a pioneer. If you create something that look like Pollock, everybody will tell you "oh... it reminds of Jackson Pollock..." and no one will say "HOW ORIGINAL!" Like no one can ever be Armstrong again, land on the Moon and say "A small step for man (etc etc)" Pollock happened, you can of course copy Pollock, but nobody copies Pollock not because it's hard, but because it's cheap AF So it's the premise that is wrong: you are not training, you are learning. They are very different concepts. AIs (if we wanna define the "intelligent") are currently just very complex copy machines trained on copyrighted material. Remove the copyrighted material and their output would be much less than unimpressive (probably a mix of very boring and very ugly). Remove the ability to watch copyrighted material from people and some of them will come up with an original piece of art. It happened many times throughout history.
CuriouslyC 4y ago
You are romanticizing brains. Please stick to logical arguments that can be empirically tested.

idiotsecant 4y ago

No? The mechanisms are different but the underlying idea is the same - identify important features and replicate those features in new context. If an AI identifies those features quickly or if I identify them over a lifetime what's the difference? If I so that you might say my work is derivative but you won't due me. Why is it different if an AI does it?

DenisM 4y ago
This comment answers your questions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33425414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33425414
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  Not particularly. Parent post is not concerned with or making any claims to special knowledge of the internal details of the modelling in the mind or in the machine, only the output.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> The mechanisms are different but the underlying idea is the same no. they are the same as asking a person to say a number between 1 and 6, then asking the same question to a dice and concluding that men and dice work the same. > identify important features and replicate those features in new context untrue if you think that that's what people do, obviously you can conclude that AI and humans are similar. But people don't identify features, people first of all learn how to replicate - mechanically - the strokes, using the same tools as the original artists until they are able to do it, most of the time people fail and reiterate the process until they find something they are actually very good at and only after that the good ones develop their own style. based either on some artistic style or some artistic meaning. But the first difference we learn here is that humans can fail to replicate something and still become renown artists. An AI cannot do that. Not on its own. For example, many probably already know, but Michelangelo was a sculptor. He was proficient as a painter too, but painting wasn't his strongest skill. So artists, first of all, are creators, not mere replicators, in many different forms, they are not good at everything in the same way, but their knowledge percolates in other fields related to theirs: if you need to make preparatory drawings for a sculpture, you need to be good at drawing and probably painting (lights, shadows, mood, expressions, are all fundamental for a good sculpture) Secondly, the features artists derive from other art pieces are not the technical ones, those needed to make an exact replica of the original, but those that make it special. For example, in the case of Michelangelo, the Pietà has some features that an AI would surely miss. First of all the way he shaped the marble that was unheard of, it doesn't mean much if you don't contextualize the opera and immerse it in the historical period it was created. An AI could think that Michelangelo and Canova were contemporary, while they were separated by 3 centuries, which make a lot of difference in practice and in spirit. But more importantly, Michelangelo's Pietà is out of proportion, he could not make the two figures in the correct scale, proving that even a genius like he was could not easily create a faithful reproduction of two adults one in the lap of the other, with the tools of the 16th century. The Virgin Mary is very, very young, which was at odds with her role as a grieving mother and, the most important of them all, the Christ figure is not suffering, because Michelangelo did not want to depict death. An AI would assume that those are all features of Michelangelo's way of sculpting, but in reality it's the result of a mix of complexity of the opera, time when it was created, quality and technology of the tools used and the artist intentions, which makes the opera unique and, ultimately, irreproducible. If you use an AI to reproduce Michelangelo, everybody would notice, because it's literally something a complete noob or someone with a very bad taste would do. So to not say the difference, you should copy the works of lesser known artists, making it even more unethical.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  respectfully, you're raising a whole lot of arguments here that had nothing to do with any point I was raising and doesn't seem to be moving this discussion forward in any significant way. The point of this subthread thread was a user saying the following: >But if I train my own neural network inside my skull using some artist's style, that's ok? This post and others uses a lot of flowery language to point out that we train artificial neural networks and real neural networks in different ways. OK, great. I don't think anyone is saying that's not true. What I am saying is that it's irrelevant. If I am an exceptional imitator of the style of Jackson Pollock and i make a bunch of paintings that are very much in that style but clearly not his work I'm not going to be sued. My work will be labeled, rightfully so, as derivative but I have the right to sell it because it's not the same thing. Is that somehow more acceptable because I can only do it slowly and at a low volume? What if I start an institute whose sole purpose is training others to make Jackson Pollock-like paintings? What if I skip the people and make a machine that makes a similar quality of paintings with a similarly derivative style? Is that somehow immoral / illegal? Why? There's a whole lot of hand-wavey logic going on in this thread about context and opera and special human magic that only humans can possibly do and that somehow makes it immoral for an AI to do it. I am yet to see a simple, succinct argument of why that is the case.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > This post and others uses a lot of flowery language to point out that we train artificial neural networks and real neural networks in different ways. OK, great. I don't think anyone is saying that's not true. What I am saying is that it's irrelevant Maybe I was too aulic. The point is: you don't train "your artificial intelligence", because you're not an artificial intelligence, you train your whole self, that is a system, a very complex system. So you can think in terms of "I don't like death, I don't want to display death" You can learn how to paint using your feet, if you have no hands. You can be blind and still paint and enjoy it! An AI cannot think of "not displaying death" in someone's face, not even if you command it to do it, because it doesn't mean anything, out of context. > Jackson Pollock Jackson Pollock is the classic example to explain the concept: of course you can make the same paintings Jackson Pollock made. But you'll never be Jackson Pollock, because that trick works only the first time, if you are a pioneer. If you create something that look like Pollock, everybody will tell you "oh... it reminds of Jackson Pollock..." and no one will say "HOW ORIGINAL!" Like no one can ever be Armstrong again, land on the Moon and say "A small step for man (etc etc)" Pollock happened, you can of course copy Pollock, but nobody copies Pollock not because it's hard, but because it's cheap AF So it's the premise that is wrong: you are not training, you are learning. They are very different concepts. AIs (if we wanna define the "intelligent") are currently just very complex copy machines trained on copyrighted material. Remove the copyrighted material and their output would be much less than unimpressive (probably a mix of very boring and very ugly). Remove the ability to watch copyrighted material from people and some of them will come up with an original piece of art. It happened many times throughout history.

CuriouslyC 4y ago

You are romanticizing brains. Please stick to logical arguments that can be empirically tested.