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The argument hasn't been debunked. I don't have the facts to back this up, but I'd guess that on average, men work more hours per year than women with the same

The argument hasn't been debunked. I don't have the facts to back this up, but I'd guess that on average, men work more hours per year than women with the same jobs, because women tend to give birth and take care of children more than men. The reason there are so many successful female professors is because we've decided as a society that optimizing for hours worked per year is a bad idea with detrimental effects on our lives. Also from what I have heard is that in the sciences, it is extraordinarily hard to succeed as a professor and a mother at the same time unless you simply don't want to take time off to spend with your newborn and expect your kid to be factory-farmed. Edit: What's up with the downvotes? It seems like they go up and down this thread largely randomly. Are people just downvoting things they disagree with?

TWSS 15y ago
Because it would be TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS to expect a father to participate equally in the raising of his child.
- einhverfr 15y ago
  The reason why this is off-base would take more time to get into than I have. Suffice it to say however, that the inequality goes both ways, and bringing fathers up to the same level of rights in deciding whether to become parents that mothers have is not going to happen. Fathers are legally and socially secondary parents and I think women would rebel very strongly if full equality in all aspects of deciding what level of responsibility to take on regarding children was at issue.
  - fjh 15y ago
    I'm sorry, I can't help but read this as "men cannot have abortions, therefore they should not be expected to have to raise their children." I am sure that that is not what you are trying to say. Could you maybe explain why it is that man cannot have an equal (or larger) part in raising their children?
    - einhverfr 15y ago
      Actually abortion is part of it (i.e,. no equivalent opt-out for economic reasons) but where the parents have never been married, you also have the fact that over half of never-married mothers never seek child support. This means that never-married fathers have few if any rights that are not contingent first on responsibilities, while never-married mothers control the legal process every step of the way. In fact, the mother is not (and cannot be) legally required even to inform the father that he is a father and can hence give up the child for adoption without the father being able to assert custody. There is no solution to this problem (of equality in parenting for never-married couples) that we as a society can live with, so it is then obvious that fathers cannot be legally or socially equal parents. Now among married couples this comes into play too but differently. If a woman has an affair and gets pregnant by another man and the husband doesn't find out about it for, say, 3 years, the child is legally his and even if they divorce he may have to support someone else's child. This means that for women, motherhood is both a biological and social fact, but for men fatherhood is purely a social/legal fact. BTW, this also raises interesting issues--- it means that because as men and women can never be equal parents in our society, the ways in which we enforce this also mean that same-sex couples can not be fully equal to opposite-sex couples--- they either end up legally favored or disfavored depending on how presumption of paternity works in a given state.
      - dgabriel 15y ago
        Ok, so women can't be professors because of abortion and false paternity? Really?
        einhverfr 15y ago
        No. Women have trouble getting through the tenure track in sciences because the institutional structures weed them out, not taking into account family life desires. Simply saying "fathers should be equal parents" glosses over that entirely. It would be far better to ensure that taking a year or two off would allow smooth resumption of the tenure track. That's the fix.
    - srdev 15y ago
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  It's hardly outrageous. If a woman finds a man willing to do this, she has every right to marry him and have him participate equally in the raising of the child. Has anyone advocated against this?
  - shallowwater 15y ago
    for some odd reason, that is harder than you'd think. :(

TWSS 15y ago

Because it would be TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS to expect a father to participate equally in the raising of his child.

einhverfr 15y ago
The reason why this is off-base would take more time to get into than I have. Suffice it to say however, that the inequality goes both ways, and bringing fathers up to the same level of rights in deciding whether to become parents that mothers have is not going to happen. Fathers are legally and socially secondary parents and I think women would rebel very strongly if full equality in all aspects of deciding what level of responsibility to take on regarding children was at issue.
- fjh 15y ago
  I'm sorry, I can't help but read this as "men cannot have abortions, therefore they should not be expected to have to raise their children." I am sure that that is not what you are trying to say. Could you maybe explain why it is that man cannot have an equal (or larger) part in raising their children?
  - einhverfr 15y ago
    Actually abortion is part of it (i.e,. no equivalent opt-out for economic reasons) but where the parents have never been married, you also have the fact that over half of never-married mothers never seek child support. This means that never-married fathers have few if any rights that are not contingent first on responsibilities, while never-married mothers control the legal process every step of the way. In fact, the mother is not (and cannot be) legally required even to inform the father that he is a father and can hence give up the child for adoption without the father being able to assert custody. There is no solution to this problem (of equality in parenting for never-married couples) that we as a society can live with, so it is then obvious that fathers cannot be legally or socially equal parents. Now among married couples this comes into play too but differently. If a woman has an affair and gets pregnant by another man and the husband doesn't find out about it for, say, 3 years, the child is legally his and even if they divorce he may have to support someone else's child. This means that for women, motherhood is both a biological and social fact, but for men fatherhood is purely a social/legal fact. BTW, this also raises interesting issues--- it means that because as men and women can never be equal parents in our society, the ways in which we enforce this also mean that same-sex couples can not be fully equal to opposite-sex couples--- they either end up legally favored or disfavored depending on how presumption of paternity works in a given state.
    - dgabriel 15y ago
      Ok, so women can't be professors because of abortion and false paternity? Really?
      - einhverfr 15y ago
        No. Women have trouble getting through the tenure track in sciences because the institutional structures weed them out, not taking into account family life desires. Simply saying "fathers should be equal parents" glosses over that entirely. It would be far better to ensure that taking a year or two off would allow smooth resumption of the tenure track. That's the fix.
  - srdev 15y ago
yummyfajitas 15y ago
It's hardly outrageous. If a woman finds a man willing to do this, she has every right to marry him and have him participate equally in the raising of the child. Has anyone advocated against this?
- shallowwater 15y ago
  for some odd reason, that is harder than you'd think. :(