6 ms·

It is incredibly ironic that the top comment on an article blasting stereotypes is itself full of stereotypes.

TechNewb 15y ago
Agreed. And would a man be welcome at such an event? Why name the event/group/org based off of a gender? Why not name it "learning code", and have marketing based towards women. Why exclude an entire gender, even if it is potentially already dominating the given market. I personally am not a believer in excluding, to argue for including. It seems counter productive.
- pyre 15y ago
  I think it's funny that you got hung up on the idea that it was a 'ladies only' event. I think the post you were replying to was referring to this part of the parent post: > If you're a woman with a family, it's probably > preferable to carve out a Saturday morning, let your > partner (hopefully, if you have one) take care of the > kids and come home (not sloshed) to your family than > it is to head down to the bar after work to have a > couple of pints. It's just a lot more feasible. Obviously the only thing that is holding women back from going to other tech events is that the schedules aren't 'family friendly.' This conclusion would only make sense to me if there were some evidence presented that most/all of the women at the event had families of their own.
  - onemoreact 15y ago
    A fairly large number of women coders have children for much the same reasons a lot of professional women have children in general. Also, many women don't like attending male dominated events because of how poorly they are treated by a small minority of men (or drunk men) at those events. I have no idea which is more important, but I don't think they are care just as long something they are doing works. PS: People are lumping in 'nerdy' activity's when think it's a little more general than that. You can make attending a gun show a lot more inviting to women based on the same basic ideas.
  - nehan 15y ago
    Thanks for bringing this up -- it frustrates me when people correlate making things more female friendly with supporting children, flexible work hours, etc. Guess what? Men have kids too! And, there's a lot of women who don't have or don't want children (like the author of the piece). This topic gets a lot of attention, but I think there are many other issues.
- ceol 15y ago
  >Why exclude an entire gender, even if it is potentially already dominating the given market. Because it's dominating the given market. I don't see anything on their website specifically banning men, though. They probably just cater to women.
  - TechNewb 15y ago
    How is excluding a dominate group beneficial? I find groups based on gender and race to be questionable. Leave the segregation in the 20th century. How are we to break stereotypes if people keep on grouping themselves into groups defined by what they claim to want to overcome? To me it seems ironic at least. Let's focus on the root issues and solve them organically.
    - ceol 15y ago
      The root issue is that women are being treated unfairly in a certain market. To alleviate this, some women have come together with ladies-specific events within this market. This way, women can progress while fighting against discrimination. The main problem with the way you're thinking is you're ignoring the inequality and acting like a women-specific programming event is exactly the same as a men-specific event.
      - joshma 15y ago
        While I'd agree that the root cause is unfair treatment, "ladies-specific events" only server to further divide groups. I like the parent's use of "organic" - let's keep the doors open to everyone, and let the system reach equilibrium on its own.
        wpietri 15y ago
        Keep the doors open to everyone? Have you talked to actual women about their experiences in tech? I have for many years, and I tell you true: open doors are not what all of them are seeing. I'd like to see your evidence that women-specific events only serve to further divide groups. The participants I've talked to see it as an opportunity to learn new skills in a safe environment. Skills that they then go out and apply at regular companies. It's not like they then go on to work at women-only companies and then found women-only startups themselves, after all.
- edea 15y ago
  The answer to the question of "how to get more women into tech" is simply "get more women into tech" — if women see other women in the tech industry, they'll be more likely to perceive it as a viable career path, and their numbers will go up. But when you have the present situation — where women are still a minority — it's hard to start that positive feedback loop. Women don't see other women in tech, so they're less likely to see it as a potential career path, and their numbers stagnate. So the idea behind an event like this is to help break the perception that "women don't do tech." If you have a concentrated event with lots of women programmers, women are more likely to show up just because they see at as an event they are welcomed at. Having an all-womens' programming event also helps alleviate a lot of the pressures that prevent women from showing up at coed events. Ask a female programmer you know about how it felt showing up at their university's computer club, or a hackathon, when they were still relatively inexperienced: they'll probably attest to feeling as if they needed to "prove" their geek credentials, or they'll talk about being afraid of looking like some incompetent girl (as opposed to simply incompetent). All-female tech events help women build up confidence so that they feel "equipped" when/if they choose to tackle the larger tech community.
- heatherpayne 15y ago
  Hi there! I'm Heather, the founder of Ladies Learning Code. Men are welcome at our events, and we have had a few men attend each workshop. The name was designed to be a specific invitation to women, but we don't exclude men. (That being said, I personally support the idea of separate men's groups and women's groups in general, so I encourage someone to start "Men Learning Code" if they are so inclined.
  - makmanalp 15y ago
    Let's try this in reverse: "Women are welcome at our events, and we have had a few women attend each workshop. The name was designed to be a specific invitation to men, but we don't exclude women. (That being said, I personally support the idea of separate women's groups and men's groups in general, so I encourage someone to start "Women Learning Code" if they are so inclined." I'd just like to point out, without opinion one way or the other, that I believe the above paragraph would cause major outrage and claims of sexism and separatism, along with "this is why there are so few women in software".
    - gldalmaso 15y ago
      I have to point out that this exercise makes no sense (at least not to me). Taking a minority empowerment effort and turning the tables around will obviously emulate a majority empowerment effort which is matter of fact an empowerment of prejudice. If a minority group is not biased, then they have failed and will not have an effect in the status quo.
    - dgabriel 15y ago
      Ok, now make it a nursing seminar, or an education seminar directed toward men. No outcry of sexism. See how that works?
      - makmanalp 15y ago
        I actually hadn't thought of this. So it's okay to do this because of the idea that most men are not interested in nursing, and most women are not interested in programming?
- srdev 15y ago
  As tempting as it is to simply look at the raw facts, context does matter in a situation like this. The software industry is still male-dominated, and that can be intimidating and draining for people who are not male. Have you ever gone to events where you're the odd one out? Its not a comfortable experience, and even if you force yourself to keep going back, it takes an emotional toll. Think of events like these as a harbor for them to recharge at. I'd also note that the group isn't exclusionary. They do allow men. They just cater to women. As much as I'd like these types of group to be unnecessary, I'd still say their existence is valid.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    Have you ever gone to events where you're the odd one out? Yes. At the last two companies I've worked at, I've been the only non-Indian. I also live in India more than half the time (my current company is based there). When I'm in the US, I practice FMA, and I'm often the only non-Filipino in the room. I plan to travel to Cebu city soon to kick up my training, and I'll likely be the only white guy in my gym. At a yoga class, I'm often the only man. Does this make me the "odd one out"? I could choose to view things that way, but I don't. At work I might be the only white guy, but we are all there to build a great product. At FMA, we are all there to learn how to kick ass. At yoga, we are all there to become stronger and more flexible. If you attend tech events and focus on the differences between yourself and everyone else, you'll feel left out. And you'll have no one to blame but yourself.
    - refurb 15y ago
      This is a great point. "Feeling" excluded is often how you view the situation. I had an Asian friend tell me he doesn't like travelling in the southern states (particularly small towns) because people stare at him. He views this as racist behavior. I told him that they stare at me too. I'm a middle-aged white guy, but I'm obviously not from the south either. He views it as being a race issue where I view it as being an outsider issue. Bothers him, doesn't bother me. Same can be said of women who feel they are being excluded. I've worked with groups of women and often one will feel the environment is "unfriendly" while the other women say it's one of the most inclusive environments they've encountered. What's the saying? "Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so"
9oliYQjP 15y ago
I did wonder whether I should post the comment. Take a look at the site. The photos show how many folks showed up at the event. Guys aren't prohibited and in fact are often leading the seminars. Stereotypes or not, the format works. When I go to traditional developer meetups only single women who aren't moms tend to show up. You have to, at some point, wonder whether the format of the events has something to do with the low turnout of women. But yeah, let's focus on the stereotypes. I've been here long enough with a low karma that I don't really worry too much any more about being controversial.
- DeusExMachina 15y ago
  I think this is different than stereotyping, though. One thing is to say "women today ditch startups because of children, so women don't really want to do startups because they'd rather have children instead". This is stereotyping. Something along the lines of "we want to improve women attendance; today women might not be able to attend at night events because they have children; let's put it on saturday morning and see if it works" is not stereotyping IMO. It's looking at (apparent) causes and try to find a solution to work on them. Causes don't go away just because you don't want to stereotype. If you want to make a lasting change in the mindset you need to find ways to attract more women, working against what might impede them in today's society. You have to start somewhere, and I think this is a good place to start. EDIT: typos.
  - maaku 15y ago
    How are the two any different? The first isn't stereotyping at all, it's just stating a causal fact. The second is a solution to that fact. Generalizing isn't stereotyping, if it's a largely correct generalization.
    - infinite8s 15y ago
      While neither is a stereotype, the second part of the first one ("so women don't really want to do startups because they'd rather have children instead") is ascribing a motivation that does not necessarily follow from the first part.
rehack 15y ago
Honesty is better. Whether confirming a stereotype. Or breaking it.

Agreed. And would a man be welcome at such an event? Why name the event/group/org based off of a gender? Why not name it "learning code", and have marketing based towards women. Why exclude an entire gender, even if it is potentially already dominating the given market. I personally am not a believer in excluding, to argue for including. It seems counter productive.

pyre 15y ago
I think it's funny that you got hung up on the idea that it was a 'ladies only' event. I think the post you were replying to was referring to this part of the parent post: > If you're a woman with a family, it's probably > preferable to carve out a Saturday morning, let your > partner (hopefully, if you have one) take care of the > kids and come home (not sloshed) to your family than > it is to head down to the bar after work to have a > couple of pints. It's just a lot more feasible. Obviously the only thing that is holding women back from going to other tech events is that the schedules aren't 'family friendly.' This conclusion would only make sense to me if there were some evidence presented that most/all of the women at the event had families of their own.
- onemoreact 15y ago
  A fairly large number of women coders have children for much the same reasons a lot of professional women have children in general. Also, many women don't like attending male dominated events because of how poorly they are treated by a small minority of men (or drunk men) at those events. I have no idea which is more important, but I don't think they are care just as long something they are doing works. PS: People are lumping in 'nerdy' activity's when think it's a little more general than that. You can make attending a gun show a lot more inviting to women based on the same basic ideas.
- nehan 15y ago
  Thanks for bringing this up -- it frustrates me when people correlate making things more female friendly with supporting children, flexible work hours, etc. Guess what? Men have kids too! And, there's a lot of women who don't have or don't want children (like the author of the piece). This topic gets a lot of attention, but I think there are many other issues.
ceol 15y ago
>Why exclude an entire gender, even if it is potentially already dominating the given market. Because it's dominating the given market. I don't see anything on their website specifically banning men, though. They probably just cater to women.
- TechNewb 15y ago
  How is excluding a dominate group beneficial? I find groups based on gender and race to be questionable. Leave the segregation in the 20th century. How are we to break stereotypes if people keep on grouping themselves into groups defined by what they claim to want to overcome? To me it seems ironic at least. Let's focus on the root issues and solve them organically.
  - ceol 15y ago
    The root issue is that women are being treated unfairly in a certain market. To alleviate this, some women have come together with ladies-specific events within this market. This way, women can progress while fighting against discrimination. The main problem with the way you're thinking is you're ignoring the inequality and acting like a women-specific programming event is exactly the same as a men-specific event.
    - joshma 15y ago
      While I'd agree that the root cause is unfair treatment, "ladies-specific events" only server to further divide groups. I like the parent's use of "organic" - let's keep the doors open to everyone, and let the system reach equilibrium on its own.
      - wpietri 15y ago
        Keep the doors open to everyone? Have you talked to actual women about their experiences in tech? I have for many years, and I tell you true: open doors are not what all of them are seeing. I'd like to see your evidence that women-specific events only serve to further divide groups. The participants I've talked to see it as an opportunity to learn new skills in a safe environment. Skills that they then go out and apply at regular companies. It's not like they then go on to work at women-only companies and then found women-only startups themselves, after all.
edea 15y ago
The answer to the question of "how to get more women into tech" is simply "get more women into tech" — if women see other women in the tech industry, they'll be more likely to perceive it as a viable career path, and their numbers will go up. But when you have the present situation — where women are still a minority — it's hard to start that positive feedback loop. Women don't see other women in tech, so they're less likely to see it as a potential career path, and their numbers stagnate. So the idea behind an event like this is to help break the perception that "women don't do tech." If you have a concentrated event with lots of women programmers, women are more likely to show up just because they see at as an event they are welcomed at. Having an all-womens' programming event also helps alleviate a lot of the pressures that prevent women from showing up at coed events. Ask a female programmer you know about how it felt showing up at their university's computer club, or a hackathon, when they were still relatively inexperienced: they'll probably attest to feeling as if they needed to "prove" their geek credentials, or they'll talk about being afraid of looking like some incompetent girl (as opposed to simply incompetent). All-female tech events help women build up confidence so that they feel "equipped" when/if they choose to tackle the larger tech community.
heatherpayne 15y ago
Hi there! I'm Heather, the founder of Ladies Learning Code. Men are welcome at our events, and we have had a few men attend each workshop. The name was designed to be a specific invitation to women, but we don't exclude men. (That being said, I personally support the idea of separate men's groups and women's groups in general, so I encourage someone to start "Men Learning Code" if they are so inclined.
- makmanalp 15y ago
  Let's try this in reverse: "Women are welcome at our events, and we have had a few women attend each workshop. The name was designed to be a specific invitation to men, but we don't exclude women. (That being said, I personally support the idea of separate women's groups and men's groups in general, so I encourage someone to start "Women Learning Code" if they are so inclined." I'd just like to point out, without opinion one way or the other, that I believe the above paragraph would cause major outrage and claims of sexism and separatism, along with "this is why there are so few women in software".
  - gldalmaso 15y ago
    I have to point out that this exercise makes no sense (at least not to me). Taking a minority empowerment effort and turning the tables around will obviously emulate a majority empowerment effort which is matter of fact an empowerment of prejudice. If a minority group is not biased, then they have failed and will not have an effect in the status quo.
  - dgabriel 15y ago
    Ok, now make it a nursing seminar, or an education seminar directed toward men. No outcry of sexism. See how that works?
    - makmanalp 15y ago
      I actually hadn't thought of this. So it's okay to do this because of the idea that most men are not interested in nursing, and most women are not interested in programming?
srdev 15y ago
As tempting as it is to simply look at the raw facts, context does matter in a situation like this. The software industry is still male-dominated, and that can be intimidating and draining for people who are not male. Have you ever gone to events where you're the odd one out? Its not a comfortable experience, and even if you force yourself to keep going back, it takes an emotional toll. Think of events like these as a harbor for them to recharge at. I'd also note that the group isn't exclusionary. They do allow men. They just cater to women. As much as I'd like these types of group to be unnecessary, I'd still say their existence is valid.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  Have you ever gone to events where you're the odd one out? Yes. At the last two companies I've worked at, I've been the only non-Indian. I also live in India more than half the time (my current company is based there). When I'm in the US, I practice FMA, and I'm often the only non-Filipino in the room. I plan to travel to Cebu city soon to kick up my training, and I'll likely be the only white guy in my gym. At a yoga class, I'm often the only man. Does this make me the "odd one out"? I could choose to view things that way, but I don't. At work I might be the only white guy, but we are all there to build a great product. At FMA, we are all there to learn how to kick ass. At yoga, we are all there to become stronger and more flexible. If you attend tech events and focus on the differences between yourself and everyone else, you'll feel left out. And you'll have no one to blame but yourself.
  - refurb 15y ago
    This is a great point. "Feeling" excluded is often how you view the situation. I had an Asian friend tell me he doesn't like travelling in the southern states (particularly small towns) because people stare at him. He views this as racist behavior. I told him that they stare at me too. I'm a middle-aged white guy, but I'm obviously not from the south either. He views it as being a race issue where I view it as being an outsider issue. Bothers him, doesn't bother me. Same can be said of women who feel they are being excluded. I've worked with groups of women and often one will feel the environment is "unfriendly" while the other women say it's one of the most inclusive environments they've encountered. What's the saying? "Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so"

9oliYQjP 15y ago

I did wonder whether I should post the comment. Take a look at the site. The photos show how many folks showed up at the event. Guys aren't prohibited and in fact are often leading the seminars. Stereotypes or not, the format works. When I go to traditional developer meetups only single women who aren't moms tend to show up. You have to, at some point, wonder whether the format of the events has something to do with the low turnout of women. But yeah, let's focus on the stereotypes. I've been here long enough with a low karma that I don't really worry too much any more about being controversial.

DeusExMachina 15y ago
I think this is different than stereotyping, though. One thing is to say "women today ditch startups because of children, so women don't really want to do startups because they'd rather have children instead". This is stereotyping. Something along the lines of "we want to improve women attendance; today women might not be able to attend at night events because they have children; let's put it on saturday morning and see if it works" is not stereotyping IMO. It's looking at (apparent) causes and try to find a solution to work on them. Causes don't go away just because you don't want to stereotype. If you want to make a lasting change in the mindset you need to find ways to attract more women, working against what might impede them in today's society. You have to start somewhere, and I think this is a good place to start. EDIT: typos.
- maaku 15y ago
  How are the two any different? The first isn't stereotyping at all, it's just stating a causal fact. The second is a solution to that fact. Generalizing isn't stereotyping, if it's a largely correct generalization.
  - infinite8s 15y ago
    While neither is a stereotype, the second part of the first one ("so women don't really want to do startups because they'd rather have children instead") is ascribing a motivation that does not necessarily follow from the first part.

rehack 15y ago

Honesty is better. Whether confirming a stereotype. Or breaking it.