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"Fortunately that argument has been thoroughly debunked by the large number of successful female professors who are also mothers." The argument hasn't been deb

by natrius 15y ago

"Fortunately that argument has been thoroughly debunked by the large number of successful female professors who are also mothers." The argument hasn't been debunked. I don't have the facts to back this up, but I'd guess that on average, men work more hours per year than women with the same jobs, because women tend to give birth and take care of children more than men. The reason there are so many successful female professors is because we've decided as a society that optimizing for hours worked per year is a bad idea with detrimental effects on our lives. If someone were choosing between a man and a woman of equal skill to work at a startup, wanted to maximize hours worked per year, and didn't care about the law or the effects of their decision on society, they'd pick the man. Fortunately, there are far better indicators than gender of how prone an individual is to take extended leave.

einhverfr 15y ago
The argument hasn't been debunked. I don't have the facts to back this up, but I'd guess that on average, men work more hours per year than women with the same jobs, because women tend to give birth and take care of children more than men. The reason there are so many successful female professors is because we've decided as a society that optimizing for hours worked per year is a bad idea with detrimental effects on our lives. Also from what I have heard is that in the sciences, it is extraordinarily hard to succeed as a professor and a mother at the same time unless you simply don't want to take time off to spend with your newborn and expect your kid to be factory-farmed. Edit: What's up with the downvotes? It seems like they go up and down this thread largely randomly. Are people just downvoting things they disagree with?
- TWSS 15y ago
  Because it would be TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS to expect a father to participate equally in the raising of his child.
  - einhverfr 15y ago
    The reason why this is off-base would take more time to get into than I have. Suffice it to say however, that the inequality goes both ways, and bringing fathers up to the same level of rights in deciding whether to become parents that mothers have is not going to happen. Fathers are legally and socially secondary parents and I think women would rebel very strongly if full equality in all aspects of deciding what level of responsibility to take on regarding children was at issue.
    - fjh 15y ago
      I'm sorry, I can't help but read this as "men cannot have abortions, therefore they should not be expected to have to raise their children." I am sure that that is not what you are trying to say. Could you maybe explain why it is that man cannot have an equal (or larger) part in raising their children?
      - einhverfr 15y ago
        Actually abortion is part of it (i.e,. no equivalent opt-out for economic reasons) but where the parents have never been married, you also have the fact that over half of never-married mothers never seek child support. This means that never-married fathers have few if any rights that are not contingent first on responsibilities, while never-married mothers control the legal process every step of the way. In fact, the mother is not (and cannot be) legally required even to inform the father that he is a father and can hence give up the child for adoption without the father being able to assert custody. There is no solution to this problem (of equality in parenting for never-married couples) that we as a society can live with, so it is then obvious that fathers cannot be legally or socially equal parents. Now among married couples this comes into play too but differently. If a woman has an affair and gets pregnant by another man and the husband doesn't find out about it for, say, 3 years, the child is legally his and even if they divorce he may have to support someone else's child. This means that for women, motherhood is both a biological and social fact, but for men fatherhood is purely a social/legal fact. BTW, this also raises interesting issues--- it means that because as men and women can never be equal parents in our society, the ways in which we enforce this also mean that same-sex couples can not be fully equal to opposite-sex couples--- they either end up legally favored or disfavored depending on how presumption of paternity works in a given state.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    It's hardly outrageous. If a woman finds a man willing to do this, she has every right to marry him and have him participate equally in the raising of the child. Has anyone advocated against this?
    - shallowwater 15y ago
      for some odd reason, that is harder than you'd think. :(
briancooley 15y ago
I'd guess that on average, men work more hours per year than women with the same jobs, because women tend to give birth and take care of children more than men. I can't help but wonder if this is significantly influenced by an imbalance in compensation. When my daughter was born, my wife and I decided that one of us would stay home, and income was certainly a large factor in determining that she would be the one to stay home. If our incomes had been reversed, then I would have become a stay-at-home dad.
- da_dude4242 15y ago
  The way you frame it is a catch-22 but data shows that when matched for age, marital status, and children single women with no children make more money than their male counterpart. As soon as a man becomes married this switches. A man is more likely to take on extra hours/responsibilities and a woman is more likely to work part-time at this point. It's the over-time and hazard pay that is associated with the wage gap. A person working 80 hours per week should not have the same hourly-wage as someone working 30 hours per week regardless of gender.
microarchitect 15y ago
The argument hasn't been debunked. I don't have the facts to back this up, but I'd guess that on average, men work more hours per year than women with the same jobs, because women tend to give birth and take care of children more than men. Even if this were true, it doesn't mean that men get more stuff done. I' be interested in a study that measures the difference in job performance for equal compensation levels between men and women. Even that study might be biased because there's some evidence that if a woman and a man perform at exactly the same level, men get better ratings, but it would be better than simply measuring hours "worked". I also think throwing in statements that disparage women with the caveat that "I don't have the facts to back this up" is irresponsible and contributes to the sexism problem.
- natrius 15y ago
  If you view my assertion as "disparagement," you've inferred malice where there was none. There's nothing disparaging about what I said. Yes, the assertion points out differences between sexes, so it is "sexist." So is pointing out that women tend to breast feed more than men. In my opinion, pointing out my own lack of a citation is a better practice than making uncited claims of fact. It's an invitation to prove me wrong, but the lack of a citation in itself doesn't make me wrong.
  - microarchitect 15y ago
    If you view my assertion as "disparagement," you've inferred malice where there was none. There's nothing disparaging about what I said. Yes, the assertion points out differences between sexes, so it is "sexist." So is pointing out that women tend to breast feed more than men. There's a difference between these three statements: 1. Women and men are different - obviously true and too vague to be meaningful. 2. Women have breasts while men do not - obviously true and mostly (and hopefully) irrelevant to this discussion. 3. Women work fewer hours than men - A specific claim about women that may be used by some to justify their prejudices against women. I don't doubt that you made the claim without malice, but unfortunately these are the kinds of remarks that reinforce sexist stereotypes. For this reason, I wish people wouldn't make such claims unless there is watertight evidence backing these claims.

by natrius 15y ago

einhverfr 15y ago

The argument hasn't been debunked. I don't have the facts to back this up, but I'd guess that on average, men work more hours per year than women with the same jobs, because women tend to give birth and take care of children more than men. The reason there are so many successful female professors is because we've decided as a society that optimizing for hours worked per year is a bad idea with detrimental effects on our lives. Also from what I have heard is that in the sciences, it is extraordinarily hard to succeed as a professor and a mother at the same time unless you simply don't want to take time off to spend with your newborn and expect your kid to be factory-farmed. Edit: What's up with the downvotes? It seems like they go up and down this thread largely randomly. Are people just downvoting things they disagree with?

TWSS 15y ago
Because it would be TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS to expect a father to participate equally in the raising of his child.
- einhverfr 15y ago
  The reason why this is off-base would take more time to get into than I have. Suffice it to say however, that the inequality goes both ways, and bringing fathers up to the same level of rights in deciding whether to become parents that mothers have is not going to happen. Fathers are legally and socially secondary parents and I think women would rebel very strongly if full equality in all aspects of deciding what level of responsibility to take on regarding children was at issue.
  - fjh 15y ago
    I'm sorry, I can't help but read this as "men cannot have abortions, therefore they should not be expected to have to raise their children." I am sure that that is not what you are trying to say. Could you maybe explain why it is that man cannot have an equal (or larger) part in raising their children?
    - einhverfr 15y ago
      Actually abortion is part of it (i.e,. no equivalent opt-out for economic reasons) but where the parents have never been married, you also have the fact that over half of never-married mothers never seek child support. This means that never-married fathers have few if any rights that are not contingent first on responsibilities, while never-married mothers control the legal process every step of the way. In fact, the mother is not (and cannot be) legally required even to inform the father that he is a father and can hence give up the child for adoption without the father being able to assert custody. There is no solution to this problem (of equality in parenting for never-married couples) that we as a society can live with, so it is then obvious that fathers cannot be legally or socially equal parents. Now among married couples this comes into play too but differently. If a woman has an affair and gets pregnant by another man and the husband doesn't find out about it for, say, 3 years, the child is legally his and even if they divorce he may have to support someone else's child. This means that for women, motherhood is both a biological and social fact, but for men fatherhood is purely a social/legal fact. BTW, this also raises interesting issues--- it means that because as men and women can never be equal parents in our society, the ways in which we enforce this also mean that same-sex couples can not be fully equal to opposite-sex couples--- they either end up legally favored or disfavored depending on how presumption of paternity works in a given state.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  It's hardly outrageous. If a woman finds a man willing to do this, she has every right to marry him and have him participate equally in the raising of the child. Has anyone advocated against this?
  - shallowwater 15y ago
    for some odd reason, that is harder than you'd think. :(

briancooley 15y ago

I'd guess that on average, men work more hours per year than women with the same jobs, because women tend to give birth and take care of children more than men. I can't help but wonder if this is significantly influenced by an imbalance in compensation. When my daughter was born, my wife and I decided that one of us would stay home, and income was certainly a large factor in determining that she would be the one to stay home. If our incomes had been reversed, then I would have become a stay-at-home dad.

da_dude4242 15y ago
The way you frame it is a catch-22 but data shows that when matched for age, marital status, and children single women with no children make more money than their male counterpart. As soon as a man becomes married this switches. A man is more likely to take on extra hours/responsibilities and a woman is more likely to work part-time at this point. It's the over-time and hazard pay that is associated with the wage gap. A person working 80 hours per week should not have the same hourly-wage as someone working 30 hours per week regardless of gender.

microarchitect 15y ago

The argument hasn't been debunked. I don't have the facts to back this up, but I'd guess that on average, men work more hours per year than women with the same jobs, because women tend to give birth and take care of children more than men. Even if this were true, it doesn't mean that men get more stuff done. I' be interested in a study that measures the difference in job performance for equal compensation levels between men and women. Even that study might be biased because there's some evidence that if a woman and a man perform at exactly the same level, men get better ratings, but it would be better than simply measuring hours "worked". I also think throwing in statements that disparage women with the caveat that "I don't have the facts to back this up" is irresponsible and contributes to the sexism problem.

natrius 15y ago
If you view my assertion as "disparagement," you've inferred malice where there was none. There's nothing disparaging about what I said. Yes, the assertion points out differences between sexes, so it is "sexist." So is pointing out that women tend to breast feed more than men. In my opinion, pointing out my own lack of a citation is a better practice than making uncited claims of fact. It's an invitation to prove me wrong, but the lack of a citation in itself doesn't make me wrong.
- microarchitect 15y ago
  If you view my assertion as "disparagement," you've inferred malice where there was none. There's nothing disparaging about what I said. Yes, the assertion points out differences between sexes, so it is "sexist." So is pointing out that women tend to breast feed more than men. There's a difference between these three statements: 1. Women and men are different - obviously true and too vague to be meaningful. 2. Women have breasts while men do not - obviously true and mostly (and hopefully) irrelevant to this discussion. 3. Women work fewer hours than men - A specific claim about women that may be used by some to justify their prejudices against women. I don't doubt that you made the claim without malice, but unfortunately these are the kinds of remarks that reinforce sexist stereotypes. For this reason, I wish people wouldn't make such claims unless there is watertight evidence backing these claims.