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FCC commissioner says government should ban TikTok

81 points by Amorymeltzer 4y ago

emkoemko 4y ago
i agree, plus China doesn't play by the same rules they ban a endless list of sites/apps from outside of China then copy the product to be used and profited from inside China and out..
- csdvrx 4y ago
  IDK, I'm old school so I think the government shouldn't restrict free speech even when it really doesn't like what said free speech allows.
  - emkoemko 4y ago
    it should protect its companies when a foreign country is ripping them off globally no?
  - alphabetting 4y ago
    this is less a free speech issue than a security issue
    - harambae 4y ago
      Free speech is usually banned as being "too dangerous" but who gets to decide that and based on what criteria?
      - dylan604 4y ago
        This question is tired. Of course it will be the one "in charge" that decide that. Why is that even a question? I see it posed like it is a thinking exercise on what people might like/dislike or whatever, when it will so obviously be the dictator/totalitarian that has become the leadership that will start banning speech. What type of speech getting banned will be obvious as well as it will be anything that questions or goes against those in charge.
      - csdvrx 4y ago
        I don't see TikTok as a theater with people screaming "fire!" The government however could fit that description.
    - duped 4y ago
      Then enact broader policy that addresses privacy and security. The government shouldn't pick and choose winners and losers because it doesn't like how they operate. It should establish the rules for every company to abide by.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Maybe a reciprocity rule is what we need: ban foreign companies from operating in the US whenever an equivalent US company wouldn't be allowed to do the exact same thing in the foreign country.
  - emkoemko 4y ago
    yes exactly, never understood why we allowed this to happen look at how strict they are with even simple business trying to open in China you basically have to give them all your proprietary info before they allow you to partly own your own business in China.. You can't even invest into Chinese stocks... they play by their own rules to benefit them self's and we allow them to do so
csdvrx 4y ago
Civil servant thinks the government should expand its overreach and create new regulations + agencies + jobs for civil servants, even when it goes against the constitution, news at 11.
- emkoemko 4y ago
  how is it fine that the US allows every Chinese site/app to operate and profit from outside China while China banns everything outside China internally and just copies the banned product to profit from inside and out? we should of never allowed this behaviour
  - sahila 4y ago
    How is it fine that we allow freedom when another country restricts freedom - is that your question? Should we also be against Uighurs like they are in China? I don't think we should bow down to the lowest denominator and instead still appeal to what's best for all people.
    - emkoemko 4y ago
      so we good with their GDP growing from using our markets? while they have concentration camps? why are we propping them up if your about freedom?
      - sahila 4y ago
        Sure if you want to go down this route, I don't see why you're singling out TikTok. Do you feel we should stop trading entirely with their country then? I doubt allowing TikTok makes any kind of dent to their GDP versus our other economic entanglements with them. To me it feels like your argument for banning TikTok is because they ban our applications, and so we should do the same kinds of things they do. My argument is more that we shouldn't measure ourselves against the things they do.
        emkoemko 4y ago
mc32 4y ago
TikTok is the new anodyne entertainment that is worse for youth than stale TV was for previous generations because it encourages harmful behavior. If it were only the time wasting aspect it would not be so bad --the bad part is propagating harmful behavior to unrealized adults, specifically wrong self-help information.
- vkou 4y ago
  You are making an excellent argument for also banning TV.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Eh, how is that behavior any different than previous iterations of planking? It is not. The only real difference is that it puts control of a majority of social media young people use in the hands of a foreign power. When FB et al were doing the same thing ( with same access ), it was all great. I have no love for social media, but that ban starts at home AND if we accept the proposition that TikTok should be banned, we should be doing the same with FB and its derivatives. For the record, I am all for it ( as long as we apply this idiocy evenly and across the board ). edit: added and across the board
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > only real difference is that it puts control of a majority of social media young people use in the hands of a foreign power An adversary. Different discussion. National security versus public health / competition. We don't need to justify enforcement on Tik Tok against our lenience with Facebook because they're separate conversations. To my knowledge, regulators haven't raised anti-trust concerns with Tik Tok the way they have with Facebook. And nobody has taken the public-health mantel when it comes to social media.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
      <<An adversary. Different discussion. No. Same exact discussion. Those are not separate conversations thanks at partially to globalism and our interconnectedness and interdependence. <<To my knowledge, regulators haven't raised anti-trust concerns with Tik Tok the way they have with Facebook. Yes, regulators also didn't raise any anti-trust concerns in general lately, where US economy is full of oligopolies, where individual companies have the resources, power and impact equal to some nation states and appetites to lock customers even further in their respective locked gardens. I am sorry, but I do not find this argument persuasive based on the reality on the ground alone. You can throw a rock at almost any industry in US and you will find several top dogs owning everything in it. And this is before we get to regulatory capture and revolving doors. edit: To sum up, people like me would argue regulators are not doing their jobs. << We don't need to justify enforcement on Tik Tok against our lenience with Facebook because they're separate conversations. Why not? Scratch that. Why are they separate conversations? It seems TikTok and FB are the same type of app. The only difference is that TikTok is housed in the wrong country. << And nobody has taken the public-health mantel when it comes to social media. Could you elaborate a little? I think I know what you are trying to say, but I do not want to put words in your mouth.
bishnu 4y ago
How would this even work? Get it out of the app stores, fine. But presumably the URL would still be accessible? Likewise sideloading it onto Android devices?
- derac 4y ago
  That would decimate engagement, so it accomplishes the goal.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Clearly, the FCC will have to "Build That Wall!!!"
- emkoemko 4y ago
  just do it like China... this is silly that we allow China to block everything while we are happy to allow them to use our market...
  - vkou 4y ago
    So, the thing about championing free speech and free trade is that you also need to allow speech and trade that doesn't benefit you. If you're interested in giving up America's commitment to either, that's fine, but I'd like to have some say in what other forms of speech and trade are silly to allow.
    - emkoemko 4y ago
      ummm with how much we are propping up China... a country with concentration camps and that is anti free speech is biting us back if your about free speech... all western films need to be edited to Chinese "speech", all companies must say the right "speech"...
      - vkou 4y ago
        If it feels a bit weird to have your country's media steered by social, cultural, and legal norms[1] of another country, that's just the situation that the rest of the world has been in for a very long time, now, due to America's dominance in international media production. The United States should not be expected to have a dominating position in media export forever, though, and when its relevance outside the domestic market wanes, its media producers will be free[2] to edit their products with no regard for what the rest of the world thinks of them. [1] Also, both Television and Hollywood codes were a thing for a very long time. [2] They are currently free to do so, too, and they exercise that freedom. They just don't do it in a way that is consistent with your values. Since they aren't nationally owned companies, they aren't beholden to you in this respect.
advisedwang 4y ago
As always, remember that there are several FCC commissioners. When you see a headline about one commissioner, you aren't seeing the FCC decide something, you are seeing the politics within the FCC play out. In fact statements like this typically mean the opinion given is not the overall direction of the FCC, because if it was a majority opinion they wouldn't need to be playing to the media and would just be enacting their will.
- teepo 4y ago
  Well in this case I don't think the FCC has the authority to block it. They can recommend lawmakers do something. But this begs the question of if this point of view is based on oversight of the recommendation algorithm, is it limited to those developed by foreign owned platforms?
- dontbenebby 4y ago
  >As always, remember that there are several FCC commissioners Do they vote along party lines too? I know at the FTC under obama, anything BCP the GOP would oppose. (It seemed extremely weird since up until that point the people who'd be the most civil had been the libertarians, an awkward alliance since the millenials have all known since middle school that money is just pieces of paper.) It's a shame the French or whatever decriminalized espionage and renamed it "business intelligence" in the 90s, or we could just start threatening to execute these people for espionage or something when they get too ornery.
  - kodah 4y ago
    It can be. The Obama and Trump administrations definitely installed captive individuals. Appointment can, and probably should be, taken away. We don't need an FCC that flies by the whims of an administration. There's a lot of agencies that statement applies to though. The downside of such a take is that agencies are inherently derivative of the powers Congress gives them, so offering the president appointments is really their attempt to balance power between the branches. The real root cause is that presidents are often working hand in hand with Congress and who is really shut out is the people because Congress, regardless of the party in power, often does not reflect the will of the people. Also, kinda odd you're daydreaming about lobbing people's heads off. Maybe don't do that.
RadixDLT 4y ago
just in time for vine reboot
teepo 4y ago
So the main issues are leaking private data to Chinese authorities and the risk of foreign manipulation of the recommendation algorithm. -Does this somehow become a blueprint for oversight, in this case Oracle, of these algorithms for other social media platforms? And who wants to trust Oracle to do this?
Ekaros 4y ago
I think government should ban Facebook and Twitter to start with. Much bigger problems there.
- notright5 4y ago
  Only media approved by the Democrat Party is free of hate speech and white nationalism
- emkoemko 4y ago
  China did like a decade ago but you can use CCP approved social media
- throw_m239339 4y ago
  > I think government should ban Facebook and Twitter to start with. Much bigger problems there. Twitter and Facebook are just an extension of the executive branch of the US government. https://theintercept.com/2022/10/31/social-media-disinformation-dhs/ https://theintercept.com/2022/10/31/social-media-disinformat... So is Tiktok in relation to the PRC. In that sense none of these companies are "private, independent companies".
kibwen 4y ago
Just like last time this came up, what actual law is the executive branch accusing TikTok of breaking? I'm no fan of TikTok nor of the CCP and its asymmetric corporate warfare, but the executive branch must not be allowed to invent its own laws.
- creato 4y ago
  Many imports are banned or heavily tariffed at the whim of the executive branch, I don’t see how this is any different.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    Can you give an example? Sanctions against a country or a particular industry are not the same category as "fuck this one company in particular".
    - nicolashahn 4y ago
      Very related ban of Huawei, ZTE tech: https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/13/17686310/huawei-zte-us-government-contractor-ban-trump https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/13/17686310/huawei-zte-us-go... It was known that these companies actively work with the CCP against US interests, which is the same thing happening with TikTok now.
      - kibwen 4y ago
        That's a bill that went through congress, and it only applies to the government's own use of those company's products (which I agree with on several fronts).
        nicolashahn 4y ago
        Carr is calling on congress to craft a bill, so that's in line with this. The situation is different there because the threat is different - the greatest threat from China is if they have a backdoor to US gov devices. The greatest threat with TikTok is (from the article): > Carr highlighted concerns about U.S. data flowing back to China and the risk of a state actor using TikTok to covertly influence political processes in the United States.
tptacek 4y ago
Brendan Carr is the senior Republican FCC commissioner, for whatever that's worth.
abeppu 4y ago
I think we should separate the concerns being raised: - If the FCC is concerned with how user data is handled, great! But instead of ad-hoc bans on specific companies, let's introduce some rules or laws which apply across the board. This both removes the appearance of a targeted and capricious ban on a Chinese company (which this seems like), and set clear rules of the road going forward. - If the FCC is concerned with non-transparent manipulation of political speech or pushing perspectives preferred by foreign governments, that's great! It's a little weird and late to focus on China given that it seems we haven't really addressed the documented Russian interference, but sure. Again, let's have a somewhat more systematic approach than just 'ban TikTok', because of course there will be other avenues.
warbler73 4y ago
OK, and then which services are next? A lot.
legitster 4y ago
The whole emergence of TikTok in the US was an almost hilariously slow moving policy crisis. We know it's nefarious, but no one has really figured out a coherent reason of why. Like, even before it really took off in the states you could read reports of this highly addictive, nefarious platform that the CCP had their fingers all over getting ready to be bottled up and shipped over to the US. So now that it's here, we've poked and prodded enough to go "yep, that's a Trojan horse all right". But we still don't know what it's for. Is it meant to push subtle CCP talking points and propaganda? Is this a ruse designed to find and track dissidents? Track rising nascent millennial trends? Lure in important officials to capture or intercept their media habits? And it could just be a vanity project by high ranking CCP members - showing the West that they can develop technology.
- sosodev 4y ago
  Do we know it's nefarious? I don't think we've seen any proof or as you pointed out we would know why
  - dontreact 4y ago
    There have been repeated reports of negative outcomes as a result of TikTok trends. There have been investigations into the amount of information the app collects and it is far beyond what other apps do (all without user consent). The app is clearly highly addictive. What sorts of proof would convince you that this is an addictive app that is causing harm?
  - legitster 4y ago
    That's the thing - we don't know. But there are some very high level endorsements for the whole thing from within the CCP despite the whole venture being not particularly profitable.
  - pasquinelli 4y ago
    no, "we" certainly do "know" it's nefarious. which isn't to say it actually is. understand that we're in the early stages of a new red scare, so china has gone from an important partner to an adversary to hostile, and now it's the enemy in some circles. so now everything china does is nefarious. it reminds me of this event: https://www.nytimes.com/1950/08/15/archives/dock-workers-refuse-to-unload-russian-crab-meat-on-ship-here-soviet.html https://www.nytimes.com/1950/08/15/archives/dock-workers-ref... personally, i don't think there will be much success whipping up a new red scare. people are too checked out. though maybe i'm just hoping.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
This is so asinine. If you ban TikTok, another one will just be created in its place.
- Quillbert182 4y ago
  I think the hope is that the replacement is not Chinese.
trunnell 4y ago
Duh. No reasonable adult (in any country) would go on the record to propose that a hostile foreign government should run any part of their internal communication infrastructure. It's well documented that all companies in China are beholden to the political whims of the Chinese Communist Party; when national security is at issue, Chinese companies and the Chinese government are one entity, sadly. I'm squinting skeptically at all the comments here that are confused about this, especially the ones with extra helpings of carefully chosen rhetoric (whatabout-ism, free speech, free markets, etc). There are no "free speech" issues here, ByteDance is a foreign company, not a US person. This is a national security issue. If you think it's cool to allow TikTok in Western countries, please explain why it would have been fine to allow the Nazis to run the Royal Mail, the US Postal Service, and one third of the broadcasting services in the 1930s. Would that have been a "free speech" or "free market" issue? The Chinese government has a long way to go to earn the trust of other countries. See this list of common Chinese propaganda themes to check if they may have already influenced you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_in_China#Common_CCP_propaganda_themes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_in_China#Common_CCP...
- archagon 4y ago
  How do you ban TikTok if they broke no law? If they’re kicked off all the app stores, they’ll just live on the web. If they’re not allowed to do business in the US, they’ll serve content for free, if their aim is indeed data gathering.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Comparing tiktok to the post office circa 1940 is… an odd choice. Tiktok is more like a foreign power owning playboy and mad magazine. People making dumb videos for a laugh isn’t critical communications infrastructure it’s entertainment. Banning ZTE and Huawei makes sense… but if your culture and infrastructure is so sensitive that Chinese ownership of dumb entertainment is a threat… you’ve really already lost. If tiktok as foreign spyware is a problem, ban the mechanisms of surveillance, everyone does it and it’s not only a problem when China is in control of the data.
  - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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xnx 4y ago
This guy's personal campaign against TikTok has had at least 13 posts on HN already: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=true&query=fcc%20tiktok&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=tru...
elforce002 4y ago
This will be a God send for Facebook. Reels will thrive if TikTok gets banned. If they're going to ban TikTok, why stop there? Just purge it from app/play stores globally and problem solved.

81 points by Amorymeltzer 4y ago

i agree, plus China doesn't play by the same rules they ban a endless list of sites/apps from outside of China then copy the product to be used and profited from inside China and out..

csdvrx 4y ago
IDK, I'm old school so I think the government shouldn't restrict free speech even when it really doesn't like what said free speech allows.
- emkoemko 4y ago
  it should protect its companies when a foreign country is ripping them off globally no?
- alphabetting 4y ago
  this is less a free speech issue than a security issue
  - harambae 4y ago
    Free speech is usually banned as being "too dangerous" but who gets to decide that and based on what criteria?
    - dylan604 4y ago
      This question is tired. Of course it will be the one "in charge" that decide that. Why is that even a question? I see it posed like it is a thinking exercise on what people might like/dislike or whatever, when it will so obviously be the dictator/totalitarian that has become the leadership that will start banning speech. What type of speech getting banned will be obvious as well as it will be anything that questions or goes against those in charge.
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      I don't see TikTok as a theater with people screaming "fire!" The government however could fit that description.
  - duped 4y ago
    Then enact broader policy that addresses privacy and security. The government shouldn't pick and choose winners and losers because it doesn't like how they operate. It should establish the rules for every company to abide by.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
josephcsible 4y ago
Maybe a reciprocity rule is what we need: ban foreign companies from operating in the US whenever an equivalent US company wouldn't be allowed to do the exact same thing in the foreign country.
- emkoemko 4y ago
  yes exactly, never understood why we allowed this to happen look at how strict they are with even simple business trying to open in China you basically have to give them all your proprietary info before they allow you to partly own your own business in China.. You can't even invest into Chinese stocks... they play by their own rules to benefit them self's and we allow them to do so

csdvrx 4y ago

Civil servant thinks the government should expand its overreach and create new regulations + agencies + jobs for civil servants, even when it goes against the constitution, news at 11.

emkoemko 4y ago
how is it fine that the US allows every Chinese site/app to operate and profit from outside China while China banns everything outside China internally and just copies the banned product to profit from inside and out? we should of never allowed this behaviour
- sahila 4y ago
  How is it fine that we allow freedom when another country restricts freedom - is that your question? Should we also be against Uighurs like they are in China? I don't think we should bow down to the lowest denominator and instead still appeal to what's best for all people.
  - emkoemko 4y ago
    so we good with their GDP growing from using our markets? while they have concentration camps? why are we propping them up if your about freedom?
    - sahila 4y ago
      Sure if you want to go down this route, I don't see why you're singling out TikTok. Do you feel we should stop trading entirely with their country then? I doubt allowing TikTok makes any kind of dent to their GDP versus our other economic entanglements with them. To me it feels like your argument for banning TikTok is because they ban our applications, and so we should do the same kinds of things they do. My argument is more that we shouldn't measure ourselves against the things they do.
      - emkoemko 4y ago

mc32 4y ago

TikTok is the new anodyne entertainment that is worse for youth than stale TV was for previous generations because it encourages harmful behavior. If it were only the time wasting aspect it would not be so bad --the bad part is propagating harmful behavior to unrealized adults, specifically wrong self-help information.

vkou 4y ago
You are making an excellent argument for also banning TV.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Eh, how is that behavior any different than previous iterations of planking? It is not. The only real difference is that it puts control of a majority of social media young people use in the hands of a foreign power. When FB et al were doing the same thing ( with same access ), it was all great. I have no love for social media, but that ban starts at home AND if we accept the proposition that TikTok should be banned, we should be doing the same with FB and its derivatives. For the record, I am all for it ( as long as we apply this idiocy evenly and across the board ). edit: added and across the board
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > only real difference is that it puts control of a majority of social media young people use in the hands of a foreign power An adversary. Different discussion. National security versus public health / competition. We don't need to justify enforcement on Tik Tok against our lenience with Facebook because they're separate conversations. To my knowledge, regulators haven't raised anti-trust concerns with Tik Tok the way they have with Facebook. And nobody has taken the public-health mantel when it comes to social media.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    <<An adversary. Different discussion. No. Same exact discussion. Those are not separate conversations thanks at partially to globalism and our interconnectedness and interdependence. <<To my knowledge, regulators haven't raised anti-trust concerns with Tik Tok the way they have with Facebook. Yes, regulators also didn't raise any anti-trust concerns in general lately, where US economy is full of oligopolies, where individual companies have the resources, power and impact equal to some nation states and appetites to lock customers even further in their respective locked gardens. I am sorry, but I do not find this argument persuasive based on the reality on the ground alone. You can throw a rock at almost any industry in US and you will find several top dogs owning everything in it. And this is before we get to regulatory capture and revolving doors. edit: To sum up, people like me would argue regulators are not doing their jobs. << We don't need to justify enforcement on Tik Tok against our lenience with Facebook because they're separate conversations. Why not? Scratch that. Why are they separate conversations? It seems TikTok and FB are the same type of app. The only difference is that TikTok is housed in the wrong country. << And nobody has taken the public-health mantel when it comes to social media. Could you elaborate a little? I think I know what you are trying to say, but I do not want to put words in your mouth.

bishnu 4y ago

How would this even work? Get it out of the app stores, fine. But presumably the URL would still be accessible? Likewise sideloading it onto Android devices?

derac 4y ago
That would decimate engagement, so it accomplishes the goal.
dylan604 4y ago
Clearly, the FCC will have to "Build That Wall!!!"
emkoemko 4y ago
just do it like China... this is silly that we allow China to block everything while we are happy to allow them to use our market...
- vkou 4y ago
  So, the thing about championing free speech and free trade is that you also need to allow speech and trade that doesn't benefit you. If you're interested in giving up America's commitment to either, that's fine, but I'd like to have some say in what other forms of speech and trade are silly to allow.
  - emkoemko 4y ago
    ummm with how much we are propping up China... a country with concentration camps and that is anti free speech is biting us back if your about free speech... all western films need to be edited to Chinese "speech", all companies must say the right "speech"...
    - vkou 4y ago
      If it feels a bit weird to have your country's media steered by social, cultural, and legal norms[1] of another country, that's just the situation that the rest of the world has been in for a very long time, now, due to America's dominance in international media production. The United States should not be expected to have a dominating position in media export forever, though, and when its relevance outside the domestic market wanes, its media producers will be free[2] to edit their products with no regard for what the rest of the world thinks of them. [1] Also, both Television and Hollywood codes were a thing for a very long time. [2] They are currently free to do so, too, and they exercise that freedom. They just don't do it in a way that is consistent with your values. Since they aren't nationally owned companies, they aren't beholden to you in this respect.

advisedwang 4y ago

As always, remember that there are several FCC commissioners. When you see a headline about one commissioner, you aren't seeing the FCC decide something, you are seeing the politics within the FCC play out. In fact statements like this typically mean the opinion given is not the overall direction of the FCC, because if it was a majority opinion they wouldn't need to be playing to the media and would just be enacting their will.

teepo 4y ago
Well in this case I don't think the FCC has the authority to block it. They can recommend lawmakers do something. But this begs the question of if this point of view is based on oversight of the recommendation algorithm, is it limited to those developed by foreign owned platforms?
dontbenebby 4y ago
>As always, remember that there are several FCC commissioners Do they vote along party lines too? I know at the FTC under obama, anything BCP the GOP would oppose. (It seemed extremely weird since up until that point the people who'd be the most civil had been the libertarians, an awkward alliance since the millenials have all known since middle school that money is just pieces of paper.) It's a shame the French or whatever decriminalized espionage and renamed it "business intelligence" in the 90s, or we could just start threatening to execute these people for espionage or something when they get too ornery.
- kodah 4y ago
  It can be. The Obama and Trump administrations definitely installed captive individuals. Appointment can, and probably should be, taken away. We don't need an FCC that flies by the whims of an administration. There's a lot of agencies that statement applies to though. The downside of such a take is that agencies are inherently derivative of the powers Congress gives them, so offering the president appointments is really their attempt to balance power between the branches. The real root cause is that presidents are often working hand in hand with Congress and who is really shut out is the people because Congress, regardless of the party in power, often does not reflect the will of the people. Also, kinda odd you're daydreaming about lobbing people's heads off. Maybe don't do that.

RadixDLT 4y ago

just in time for vine reboot

teepo 4y ago

So the main issues are leaking private data to Chinese authorities and the risk of foreign manipulation of the recommendation algorithm. -Does this somehow become a blueprint for oversight, in this case Oracle, of these algorithms for other social media platforms? And who wants to trust Oracle to do this?

Ekaros 4y ago

I think government should ban Facebook and Twitter to start with. Much bigger problems there.

notright5 4y ago
Only media approved by the Democrat Party is free of hate speech and white nationalism
emkoemko 4y ago
China did like a decade ago but you can use CCP approved social media
throw_m239339 4y ago
> I think government should ban Facebook and Twitter to start with. Much bigger problems there. Twitter and Facebook are just an extension of the executive branch of the US government. https://theintercept.com/2022/10/31/social-media-disinformation-dhs/ https://theintercept.com/2022/10/31/social-media-disinformat... So is Tiktok in relation to the PRC. In that sense none of these companies are "private, independent companies".

kibwen 4y ago

Just like last time this came up, what actual law is the executive branch accusing TikTok of breaking? I'm no fan of TikTok nor of the CCP and its asymmetric corporate warfare, but the executive branch must not be allowed to invent its own laws.

creato 4y ago
Many imports are banned or heavily tariffed at the whim of the executive branch, I don’t see how this is any different.
- kibwen 4y ago
  Can you give an example? Sanctions against a country or a particular industry are not the same category as "fuck this one company in particular".
  - nicolashahn 4y ago
    Very related ban of Huawei, ZTE tech: https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/13/17686310/huawei-zte-us-government-contractor-ban-trump https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/13/17686310/huawei-zte-us-go... It was known that these companies actively work with the CCP against US interests, which is the same thing happening with TikTok now.
    - kibwen 4y ago
      That's a bill that went through congress, and it only applies to the government's own use of those company's products (which I agree with on several fronts).
      - nicolashahn 4y ago
        Carr is calling on congress to craft a bill, so that's in line with this. The situation is different there because the threat is different - the greatest threat from China is if they have a backdoor to US gov devices. The greatest threat with TikTok is (from the article): > Carr highlighted concerns about U.S. data flowing back to China and the risk of a state actor using TikTok to covertly influence political processes in the United States.

tptacek 4y ago

Brendan Carr is the senior Republican FCC commissioner, for whatever that's worth.

abeppu 4y ago

I think we should separate the concerns being raised: - If the FCC is concerned with how user data is handled, great! But instead of ad-hoc bans on specific companies, let's introduce some rules or laws which apply across the board. This both removes the appearance of a targeted and capricious ban on a Chinese company (which this seems like), and set clear rules of the road going forward. - If the FCC is concerned with non-transparent manipulation of political speech or pushing perspectives preferred by foreign governments, that's great! It's a little weird and late to focus on China given that it seems we haven't really addressed the documented Russian interference, but sure. Again, let's have a somewhat more systematic approach than just 'ban TikTok', because of course there will be other avenues.

warbler73 4y ago

OK, and then which services are next? A lot.

legitster 4y ago

The whole emergence of TikTok in the US was an almost hilariously slow moving policy crisis. We know it's nefarious, but no one has really figured out a coherent reason of why. Like, even before it really took off in the states you could read reports of this highly addictive, nefarious platform that the CCP had their fingers all over getting ready to be bottled up and shipped over to the US. So now that it's here, we've poked and prodded enough to go "yep, that's a Trojan horse all right". But we still don't know what it's for. Is it meant to push subtle CCP talking points and propaganda? Is this a ruse designed to find and track dissidents? Track rising nascent millennial trends? Lure in important officials to capture or intercept their media habits? And it could just be a vanity project by high ranking CCP members - showing the West that they can develop technology.

sosodev 4y ago
Do we know it's nefarious? I don't think we've seen any proof or as you pointed out we would know why
- dontreact 4y ago
  There have been repeated reports of negative outcomes as a result of TikTok trends. There have been investigations into the amount of information the app collects and it is far beyond what other apps do (all without user consent). The app is clearly highly addictive. What sorts of proof would convince you that this is an addictive app that is causing harm?
- legitster 4y ago
  That's the thing - we don't know. But there are some very high level endorsements for the whole thing from within the CCP despite the whole venture being not particularly profitable.
- pasquinelli 4y ago
  no, "we" certainly do "know" it's nefarious. which isn't to say it actually is. understand that we're in the early stages of a new red scare, so china has gone from an important partner to an adversary to hostile, and now it's the enemy in some circles. so now everything china does is nefarious. it reminds me of this event: https://www.nytimes.com/1950/08/15/archives/dock-workers-refuse-to-unload-russian-crab-meat-on-ship-here-soviet.html https://www.nytimes.com/1950/08/15/archives/dock-workers-ref... personally, i don't think there will be much success whipping up a new red scare. people are too checked out. though maybe i'm just hoping.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

This is so asinine. If you ban TikTok, another one will just be created in its place.

Quillbert182 4y ago
I think the hope is that the replacement is not Chinese.

trunnell 4y ago

Duh. No reasonable adult (in any country) would go on the record to propose that a hostile foreign government should run any part of their internal communication infrastructure. It's well documented that all companies in China are beholden to the political whims of the Chinese Communist Party; when national security is at issue, Chinese companies and the Chinese government are one entity, sadly. I'm squinting skeptically at all the comments here that are confused about this, especially the ones with extra helpings of carefully chosen rhetoric (whatabout-ism, free speech, free markets, etc). There are no "free speech" issues here, ByteDance is a foreign company, not a US person. This is a national security issue. If you think it's cool to allow TikTok in Western countries, please explain why it would have been fine to allow the Nazis to run the Royal Mail, the US Postal Service, and one third of the broadcasting services in the 1930s. Would that have been a "free speech" or "free market" issue? The Chinese government has a long way to go to earn the trust of other countries. See this list of common Chinese propaganda themes to check if they may have already influenced you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_in_China#Common_CCP_propaganda_themes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_in_China#Common_CCP...

archagon 4y ago
How do you ban TikTok if they broke no law? If they’re kicked off all the app stores, they’ll just live on the web. If they’re not allowed to do business in the US, they’ll serve content for free, if their aim is indeed data gathering.
colechristensen 4y ago
Comparing tiktok to the post office circa 1940 is… an odd choice. Tiktok is more like a foreign power owning playboy and mad magazine. People making dumb videos for a laugh isn’t critical communications infrastructure it’s entertainment. Banning ZTE and Huawei makes sense… but if your culture and infrastructure is so sensitive that Chinese ownership of dumb entertainment is a threat… you’ve really already lost. If tiktok as foreign spyware is a problem, ban the mechanisms of surveillance, everyone does it and it’s not only a problem when China is in control of the data.
- 4y ago

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xnx 4y ago

This guy's personal campaign against TikTok has had at least 13 posts on HN already: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=true&query=fcc%20tiktok&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=tru...

elforce002 4y ago

This will be a God send for Facebook. Reels will thrive if TikTok gets banned. If they're going to ban TikTok, why stop there? Just purge it from app/play stores globally and problem solved.