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> does it have to revolve around UNIX clones as if there aren't any other kind of developers? The irony of saying this in the context of Windows is thick enoug

> does it have to revolve around UNIX clones as if there aren't any other kind of developers? The irony of saying this in the context of Windows is thick enough one could cut it and use it to build a sizeable home.

com2kid 4y ago
Windows was the dominant operating system for developers for nearly two decades. Up until about a decade ago, Microsoft arguably made the world's only good IDE. (ignoring some relics from the 80s!) It isn't as if Windows is some developer wasteland.
- trelane 4y ago
  > Windows was the dominant operating system for developers for nearly two decades. This is rather my point. It's still the case that, in many businesses, nobody got fired for buying Microsoft. And, despite the increasing importance of Linux on the server, there's a _lot_ of software that ties its users to Windows. Too nad WSL doesn't live up to its name.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > Up until about a decade ago, Microsoft arguably made the world's only good IDE. If you're referring to Visual Studio then I think you and I have very different definitions of "good".
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > If you're referring to Visual Studio then I think you and I have very different definitions of "good". Go to 2010 Linux and find me an IDE with: 1. A functioning graphical debugger that works across multiple languages, both native and JITed 2. A fully featured WYSIWYG UI editor that can generate backing code in multiple languages 3. Comes with a SQL engine setup and ready to use for development, that it can seamlessly connect to for testing out code locally[1] 4. Can step from your code into SQL statements and back again 5. Can step from code you are debugging on a remote box, to SQL code running on yet another machine, and back again 6. Has functional, production ready, data binding that works with arbitrary data sources, that also fully integrates with the GUI builder 7. Integrates with source control 8. Integrates with task/work item management 9. Enables the workflow of you get an email about a fault on a server in a test environment, you click a link, and the IDE connects to the remote machine, downloads symbols, and starts up in the debugger 10. Automatically fetches the proper debugging symbols for the version of code you are debugging And again, this was all doable across a multitude of languages. IIRC Eclipse was the nearest "competitor" and it was slower than molasses and didn't have anything near the same feature set. Visual Studio is an impressive piece of software. Has it had some buggy releases? Yeah. Does it feel super outdated now? Yes it does, in comparison, VS Code's ability to navigate around files/projects is incredible. But I had a better developer experience using Visual Studio and C# a dozen years ago (!!!) than I have with Node JS now. [1] The modern cloud version of this is such a disaster.
    - ungamedplayer 4y ago
      This may be obvious to you, and I am trying not to put words in your mouth. Linux and UNIX doesn't build tooling this way, because they believe that you make one tool to do one thing well, and these things you mention while related are not one thing. You'd use the OS as an IDE in this context. The mindset is changing over time, systemd, vscode, etc.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        No they don't, this is cargo cult from UNIX FOSS community based on a famous book remark. No commercial UNIX has ever followed that mantra.
        worthless-trash 4y ago
        I dunno man, gcc as a binary, make as a binary, shell as a binary, wget, up2date, dnf .. its not integrated...
        yellowapple 4y ago
        > No commercial UNIX has ever followed that mantra. No commercial UNIX besides macOS/iOS has enjoyed anywhere near GNU/Linux's success, either.
    - yellowapple 4y ago
      Having lots of features != being of high quality. If Eclipse was "slower than molasses", then VS was a brick - as many a poor computer of mine from back then can attest, fans a-spinning at speeds that made hurricanes feel like gentle breezes all because I'd double-click on some random file that VS decided "hey I can open this therefore I should be the default" (and thanks to all that feeping creaturism, that was a lot of files). Meanwhile, Emacs worked fine. Netbeans worked fine. Eclipse worked okay. Qt Creator existed (though I can't attest to how well it worked then). There were definitely options, and while sure, they lacked a lot of those fancy bells and whistles, at the end of the day were those really worth turning computers into passenger jets? > But I had a better developer experience using Visual Studio and C# a dozen years ago (!!!) than I have with Node JS now. That bar is so low that even ants have to duck to get under it.

com2kid 4y ago

Windows was the dominant operating system for developers for nearly two decades. Up until about a decade ago, Microsoft arguably made the world's only good IDE. (ignoring some relics from the 80s!) It isn't as if Windows is some developer wasteland.

trelane 4y ago
> Windows was the dominant operating system for developers for nearly two decades. This is rather my point. It's still the case that, in many businesses, nobody got fired for buying Microsoft. And, despite the increasing importance of Linux on the server, there's a _lot_ of software that ties its users to Windows. Too nad WSL doesn't live up to its name.
yellowapple 4y ago
> Up until about a decade ago, Microsoft arguably made the world's only good IDE. If you're referring to Visual Studio then I think you and I have very different definitions of "good".
- com2kid 4y ago
  > If you're referring to Visual Studio then I think you and I have very different definitions of "good". Go to 2010 Linux and find me an IDE with: 1. A functioning graphical debugger that works across multiple languages, both native and JITed 2. A fully featured WYSIWYG UI editor that can generate backing code in multiple languages 3. Comes with a SQL engine setup and ready to use for development, that it can seamlessly connect to for testing out code locally[1] 4. Can step from your code into SQL statements and back again 5. Can step from code you are debugging on a remote box, to SQL code running on yet another machine, and back again 6. Has functional, production ready, data binding that works with arbitrary data sources, that also fully integrates with the GUI builder 7. Integrates with source control 8. Integrates with task/work item management 9. Enables the workflow of you get an email about a fault on a server in a test environment, you click a link, and the IDE connects to the remote machine, downloads symbols, and starts up in the debugger 10. Automatically fetches the proper debugging symbols for the version of code you are debugging And again, this was all doable across a multitude of languages. IIRC Eclipse was the nearest "competitor" and it was slower than molasses and didn't have anything near the same feature set. Visual Studio is an impressive piece of software. Has it had some buggy releases? Yeah. Does it feel super outdated now? Yes it does, in comparison, VS Code's ability to navigate around files/projects is incredible. But I had a better developer experience using Visual Studio and C# a dozen years ago (!!!) than I have with Node JS now. [1] The modern cloud version of this is such a disaster.
  - ungamedplayer 4y ago
    This may be obvious to you, and I am trying not to put words in your mouth. Linux and UNIX doesn't build tooling this way, because they believe that you make one tool to do one thing well, and these things you mention while related are not one thing. You'd use the OS as an IDE in this context. The mindset is changing over time, systemd, vscode, etc.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      No they don't, this is cargo cult from UNIX FOSS community based on a famous book remark. No commercial UNIX has ever followed that mantra.
      - worthless-trash 4y ago
        I dunno man, gcc as a binary, make as a binary, shell as a binary, wget, up2date, dnf .. its not integrated...
      - yellowapple 4y ago
        > No commercial UNIX has ever followed that mantra. No commercial UNIX besides macOS/iOS has enjoyed anywhere near GNU/Linux's success, either.
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    Having lots of features != being of high quality. If Eclipse was "slower than molasses", then VS was a brick - as many a poor computer of mine from back then can attest, fans a-spinning at speeds that made hurricanes feel like gentle breezes all because I'd double-click on some random file that VS decided "hey I can open this therefore I should be the default" (and thanks to all that feeping creaturism, that was a lot of files). Meanwhile, Emacs worked fine. Netbeans worked fine. Eclipse worked okay. Qt Creator existed (though I can't attest to how well it worked then). There were definitely options, and while sure, they lacked a lot of those fancy bells and whistles, at the end of the day were those really worth turning computers into passenger jets? > But I had a better developer experience using Visual Studio and C# a dozen years ago (!!!) than I have with Node JS now. That bar is so low that even ants have to duck to get under it.