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Second this, on behalf of my wife, who is a theoretical physicist. Most women also don't want to do physics, because they'd rather have babies, or so she's alw

by Vivtek 15y ago

Second this, on behalf of my wife, who is a theoretical physicist. Most women also don't want to do physics, because they'd rather have babies, or so she's always been told. And got passed over for a grant because she had a husband and therefore didn't need the money. I'm still pissed, not least because she's naive enough to believe it's right for her to be treated this way.

einhverfr 15y ago
My grandmother was a theoretical physicist (G. R. Caughlin, co-author of the FCZ papers on element formation in stars). She found it difficult to succeed as a woman in physics. She also raised four kids (without child care). She taught at Montana State University, Caltech, and others, and worked with Willie Fowler, Fred Hoyle, and other great minds of her day. However, having talked to women in academic sciences today, she had it easy. No long post-doc programs, tenure was an easier process, and so forth. I hear over and over from such women that they have to choose between having the family life they want and a tenure track. This is an indication of an institutional barrier to women in the field (as is your wife being passed up for the grant). These are the sort of things that need to be fixed. I am afraid simply asking how we encourage interest among women will make the problem worse because it will make the positions more competitive and hence lead to longer post-doc programs and more family sacrifices in order to achieve tenure. This gets back to my point. Focus on institutional issues only and stop worrying about outreach.
- klipt 15y ago
  > choose between having the family life they want and a tenure track This is probably true to some extent for men too. Ultimately, the only biological difference is that men can delay family life longer with less risk of infertility (provided they have a younger partner).
endtime 15y ago
>Most women also don't want to do physics, because they'd rather have babies, or so she's always been told. Do you actually think this is not the case? The claimed causation seems weird, but it's clearly true that most women don't want to do physics (neither do most men, but even on top of that, certainly far fewer women than men want to). And I expect that most women want to have babies (though a lower percentage than those who don't want to do physics). >And got passed over for a grant because she had a husband and therefore didn't need the money. That sucks and is awful and wrong. I don't think it disproves the claim in the first sentence of your article though. Nor should it be justified thereby; your wife clearly does want to do physics if she's applying for grants, so it shouldn't apply to her.
- Vivtek 15y ago
  Do you actually think this is not the case? Jesus - seriously? Of course I think it's not the case. My wife, a theoretical physicist, has two children. These are not mutually exclusive goals in life, and it's incredible to me - and I truly mean this in the nicest possible way, because you're asking honestly and I respect that - that an adult in the twenty-first century could honestly believe that it even should be a choice, let alone that people (even women) make such a choice. It blew my mind when all the male physicists thought that too - it blew my wife's mind, actually, because she thinks physicists think more clearly than other people (yes, I love her dearly, but I do have to remind her that physicists are still primates). Everybody wants to have babies. Seriously. It's pretty much built into the low-level code. It's not exclusive to women. If there are fewer women in physics (and there are) then it is far, far more due to the fact that the field is really and truly knife-in-the-back hostile to women than that women choose to have babies "instead". My wife went to grad school with a bunch of really nice guys. Lifetime friends kind of guys. And they still couldn't quite wrap their heads around the fact that she was female and still really deeply into theoretical particle physics. Sure, it's interfered with her career for real reasons - kids have interfered with my own career, and that's just reality - but nobody says I'm not dedicated enough to my career because I chose to have kids. So why is that? It's simply because I'm male. Nothing more. The truth is, a lot of the philosophy of the academic system is due to the monasteries that preceded it. If you're not married to God (I mean, "physics") then you don't truly love it. Which is balderdash, of course - but academics are some of the most sexist people in the world, and truly believe the place of the faculty wife is in the kitchen and picking the kids up at school, while her husband is doing all the smart stuff eighteen hours a day and getting ahead. Hell, even Einstein was a pig in that sense, but he was at least born in the nineteenth century and had an excuse.
  - groby_b 15y ago
    Since we are on that 21st century stuff... No, not everybody wants to have babies. I never did. Sure, I have my occasional moments where I go all gooey - but overall, I stand by that choice. And so do plenty of other women. Having kids thankfully is a choice these days. I respect people who choose to have them - I'd appreciate it if that was a mutual courtesy. Edit: Fixed mark-up. Glad that there are so many ways to emphasize text that every website gets to pick their own ;)

by Vivtek 15y ago

einhverfr 15y ago

My grandmother was a theoretical physicist (G. R. Caughlin, co-author of the FCZ papers on element formation in stars). She found it difficult to succeed as a woman in physics. She also raised four kids (without child care). She taught at Montana State University, Caltech, and others, and worked with Willie Fowler, Fred Hoyle, and other great minds of her day. However, having talked to women in academic sciences today, she had it easy. No long post-doc programs, tenure was an easier process, and so forth. I hear over and over from such women that they have to choose between having the family life they want and a tenure track. This is an indication of an institutional barrier to women in the field (as is your wife being passed up for the grant). These are the sort of things that need to be fixed. I am afraid simply asking how we encourage interest among women will make the problem worse because it will make the positions more competitive and hence lead to longer post-doc programs and more family sacrifices in order to achieve tenure. This gets back to my point. Focus on institutional issues only and stop worrying about outreach.

klipt 15y ago
> choose between having the family life they want and a tenure track This is probably true to some extent for men too. Ultimately, the only biological difference is that men can delay family life longer with less risk of infertility (provided they have a younger partner).

endtime 15y ago

>Most women also don't want to do physics, because they'd rather have babies, or so she's always been told. Do you actually think this is not the case? The claimed causation seems weird, but it's clearly true that most women don't want to do physics (neither do most men, but even on top of that, certainly far fewer women than men want to). And I expect that most women want to have babies (though a lower percentage than those who don't want to do physics). >And got passed over for a grant because she had a husband and therefore didn't need the money. That sucks and is awful and wrong. I don't think it disproves the claim in the first sentence of your article though. Nor should it be justified thereby; your wife clearly does want to do physics if she's applying for grants, so it shouldn't apply to her.

Vivtek 15y ago
Do you actually think this is not the case? Jesus - seriously? Of course I think it's not the case. My wife, a theoretical physicist, has two children. These are not mutually exclusive goals in life, and it's incredible to me - and I truly mean this in the nicest possible way, because you're asking honestly and I respect that - that an adult in the twenty-first century could honestly believe that it even should be a choice, let alone that people (even women) make such a choice. It blew my mind when all the male physicists thought that too - it blew my wife's mind, actually, because she thinks physicists think more clearly than other people (yes, I love her dearly, but I do have to remind her that physicists are still primates). Everybody wants to have babies. Seriously. It's pretty much built into the low-level code. It's not exclusive to women. If there are fewer women in physics (and there are) then it is far, far more due to the fact that the field is really and truly knife-in-the-back hostile to women than that women choose to have babies "instead". My wife went to grad school with a bunch of really nice guys. Lifetime friends kind of guys. And they still couldn't quite wrap their heads around the fact that she was female and still really deeply into theoretical particle physics. Sure, it's interfered with her career for real reasons - kids have interfered with my own career, and that's just reality - but nobody says I'm not dedicated enough to my career because I chose to have kids. So why is that? It's simply because I'm male. Nothing more. The truth is, a lot of the philosophy of the academic system is due to the monasteries that preceded it. If you're not married to God (I mean, "physics") then you don't truly love it. Which is balderdash, of course - but academics are some of the most sexist people in the world, and truly believe the place of the faculty wife is in the kitchen and picking the kids up at school, while her husband is doing all the smart stuff eighteen hours a day and getting ahead. Hell, even Einstein was a pig in that sense, but he was at least born in the nineteenth century and had an excuse.
- groby_b 15y ago
  Since we are on that 21st century stuff... No, not everybody wants to have babies. I never did. Sure, I have my occasional moments where I go all gooey - but overall, I stand by that choice. And so do plenty of other women. Having kids thankfully is a choice these days. I respect people who choose to have them - I'd appreciate it if that was a mutual courtesy. Edit: Fixed mark-up. Glad that there are so many ways to emphasize text that every website gets to pick their own ;)