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Gotcha! Missed what you were getting at there. Yep, agree with all of that. >Because EVs are here to save the car industry not the planet. Especially this.

Gotcha! Missed what you were getting at there. Yep, agree with all of that. >Because EVs are here to save the car industry not the planet. Especially this. I've already made the point that EVs are almost like Rai Stones - an immobile indicator of wealth.

Schroedingersat 4y ago
> I've already made the point that EVs are almost like Rai Stones - an immobile indicator of wealth. That's probably a bit too far. The range issues are very much overblown edge cases. If you're going to make a new personal vehicle it should probably run primarily on a small LFP battery -- whether pure plug in or hybrid. Modern cars in general are ridiculous, anti-practical conspicuous-consumption symbols of just how much power the owner has to ruin the lives of those around them. EVs are not much different in that regard.
- jryhjythtr 4y ago
  > ridiculous, anti-practical conspicuous-consumption symbols of just how much power the owner has So like a Rai Stone? >it should probably run primarily on a small LFP battery -- whether pure plug in or hybrid. If you go down that route, you'll probably work out that people should be riding e-cargo bikes everywhere (I've been tempted myself)
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    Rai Stones don't, as a rule, run over my children, give me lung cancer, or destroy the park for an overpass. Conversely they can't get me to all the towns where the rail was demolished for scrap at a higher cost than mining fresh iron. The core concept of car is fine to have as a small part of our lives, the implementations are largely gross and unnecessary. > If you go down that route, you'll probably work out that people should be riding e-cargo bikes everywhere (I've been tempted myself) They're great. Mine has a solar panel over the cargo bed and never needs charging (literally do not own an AC charger for it). You need some minimal level of concession from driving culture and infrastructure to make them survivable though. They also don't cover all use cases (but carrying the *%#$ full sheet of plywood that is always brought up as somehow being an essential daily staple is quite possible with a variety of designs or trailers).
    - jryhjythtr 4y ago
      >Mine has a solar panel over the cargo bed and never needs charging Interesting - what's your average daily mileage? I'm relatively familiar with the power requirements of EVs, and large-scale solar installations. I have no idea what kind of average charging power a small solar panel provides!
      - Schroedingersat 4y ago
        Fairly low mileage but it also spends a fair bit of time inside. Most miles go on the unpowered one as the cargo bike (actually a rear-steer tricycle) is for large cargo. It's a nominal 200W panel (older fairly inefficient monocrystalline, big enough for a small sunshade which is its main function) and will fill the 1.1kWh battery in about a day (in a near-optimal climate), or two if the weather is meh. Before I mounted it on the trike I could get ~100-150km before plugging it into the panel on flatter ground or about 20-30km on a route with several big hills (12% grade) and a heavy (50kg bike + 50-100kg cargo + 75kg rider) load. The trike is pretty speed limited by handling though (20-25km/h) and it takes very little effort on the flat to keep it above the 25km/h speed limiter. On flat ground or shallow hills (1-2%) during the sunny part of the day (9-3) I can't use more power than the panel provides without going up hills because of the speed restriction. I'd imagine on a bakfiets in an area where 32km/h limiters were allowed you'd get about 30-50km depending on the terrain. Some back of the envelope: Consider this: https://www.bakfiets.com/elektrische-bakfiets/cargobike-classic-long-steps https://www.bakfiets.com/elektrische-bakfiets/cargobike-clas... A less ghetto lid than my arrangement would be 0.63m^2 This would fit okay as a lid: https://www.solar4rvs.com.au/sunman-earc-100w-flexible-solar-panel-2022-high-ef https://www.solar4rvs.com.au/sunman-earc-100w-flexible-solar... a little narrow and would hang over the edge a little. Assume it's about 45 degrees from optimal (70%) and that you're getting the average irradiance from somewhere like denmark (1000kWh/yr). You'll get about 71kWh/yr. Cut off 7kWh for charging loss so 62kWh. A typical bike battery is 500Wh, so 120 charges or 1 full charge every 3 days. A charge might get you 20km or it might get you 90km, but for a typical rider with moderate hills who puts in a 40-60W contribution (same effort as walking) and doesn't want to risk grinding home the last 10km on a cloudy day, a reasonable ballpark is 50km/day. So you're looking at ~15-20km (but you'll need to charge it in winter), or maybe up to 5x that (and decent range even in winter) if you think very carefully about parking, live in a better climate for solar, and do 25 rather than 32.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

> I've already made the point that EVs are almost like Rai Stones - an immobile indicator of wealth. That's probably a bit too far. The range issues are very much overblown edge cases. If you're going to make a new personal vehicle it should probably run primarily on a small LFP battery -- whether pure plug in or hybrid. Modern cars in general are ridiculous, anti-practical conspicuous-consumption symbols of just how much power the owner has to ruin the lives of those around them. EVs are not much different in that regard.

jryhjythtr 4y ago
> ridiculous, anti-practical conspicuous-consumption symbols of just how much power the owner has So like a Rai Stone? >it should probably run primarily on a small LFP battery -- whether pure plug in or hybrid. If you go down that route, you'll probably work out that people should be riding e-cargo bikes everywhere (I've been tempted myself)
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  Rai Stones don't, as a rule, run over my children, give me lung cancer, or destroy the park for an overpass. Conversely they can't get me to all the towns where the rail was demolished for scrap at a higher cost than mining fresh iron. The core concept of car is fine to have as a small part of our lives, the implementations are largely gross and unnecessary. > If you go down that route, you'll probably work out that people should be riding e-cargo bikes everywhere (I've been tempted myself) They're great. Mine has a solar panel over the cargo bed and never needs charging (literally do not own an AC charger for it). You need some minimal level of concession from driving culture and infrastructure to make them survivable though. They also don't cover all use cases (but carrying the *%#$ full sheet of plywood that is always brought up as somehow being an essential daily staple is quite possible with a variety of designs or trailers).
  - jryhjythtr 4y ago
    >Mine has a solar panel over the cargo bed and never needs charging Interesting - what's your average daily mileage? I'm relatively familiar with the power requirements of EVs, and large-scale solar installations. I have no idea what kind of average charging power a small solar panel provides!
    - Schroedingersat 4y ago
      Fairly low mileage but it also spends a fair bit of time inside. Most miles go on the unpowered one as the cargo bike (actually a rear-steer tricycle) is for large cargo. It's a nominal 200W panel (older fairly inefficient monocrystalline, big enough for a small sunshade which is its main function) and will fill the 1.1kWh battery in about a day (in a near-optimal climate), or two if the weather is meh. Before I mounted it on the trike I could get ~100-150km before plugging it into the panel on flatter ground or about 20-30km on a route with several big hills (12% grade) and a heavy (50kg bike + 50-100kg cargo + 75kg rider) load. The trike is pretty speed limited by handling though (20-25km/h) and it takes very little effort on the flat to keep it above the 25km/h speed limiter. On flat ground or shallow hills (1-2%) during the sunny part of the day (9-3) I can't use more power than the panel provides without going up hills because of the speed restriction. I'd imagine on a bakfiets in an area where 32km/h limiters were allowed you'd get about 30-50km depending on the terrain. Some back of the envelope: Consider this: https://www.bakfiets.com/elektrische-bakfiets/cargobike-classic-long-steps https://www.bakfiets.com/elektrische-bakfiets/cargobike-clas... A less ghetto lid than my arrangement would be 0.63m^2 This would fit okay as a lid: https://www.solar4rvs.com.au/sunman-earc-100w-flexible-solar-panel-2022-high-ef https://www.solar4rvs.com.au/sunman-earc-100w-flexible-solar... a little narrow and would hang over the edge a little. Assume it's about 45 degrees from optimal (70%) and that you're getting the average irradiance from somewhere like denmark (1000kWh/yr). You'll get about 71kWh/yr. Cut off 7kWh for charging loss so 62kWh. A typical bike battery is 500Wh, so 120 charges or 1 full charge every 3 days. A charge might get you 20km or it might get you 90km, but for a typical rider with moderate hills who puts in a 40-60W contribution (same effort as walking) and doesn't want to risk grinding home the last 10km on a cloudy day, a reasonable ballpark is 50km/day. So you're looking at ~15-20km (but you'll need to charge it in winter), or maybe up to 5x that (and decent range even in winter) if you think very carefully about parking, live in a better climate for solar, and do 25 rather than 32.