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> The housing space metrics seem very far off from my experience I have friend living in Tokyo paying <10万円 in rent for a (very small) single unit. A couple ot

> The housing space metrics seem very far off from my experience I have friend living in Tokyo paying <10万円 in rent for a (very small) single unit. A couple other friends share a larger unit and pay similar per person. All are in the 23 wards. This is unimaginable for other friends living in Paris (one of the 20 Arrondissements) and New York (one of the 5 boroughs), regardless of size. I have no anecdata on London. Regarding size, I was far more comfortable living in a ~550sqft 1LDK in Japan than I ever was in 800sqft-1000sqft apartments in North America - everything is geared to living in tighter quarters (from furniture to fridge to food packaging) making it much more convenient than trying to fit a full size couch into a small western apartment, or trying to save by bulk buying ingredients when you don't have the space to store it. So I think the title of the article is half right (rent is cheaper than you'd think), missing some key info (wages are also cheaper than you'd think), half of it is roughly incorrect (housing is not any more spacious than you'd think), and the article itself doesn't back it up well.

Konichivalue 4y ago
Yes, the numbers are a bit skewed by the fact that more people live alone in Tokyo than Paris or NYC, but it's definitely true that you get more square meters per $ in Tokyo. Also, it is true that people on Tokyo on average earn less than NYC, London and Paris, but they also spend a smaller percentage of their total income on housing, so housing is cheaper in PPP terms too. I'll dig out the exact numbers tomorrow if anyone is interested, but now I'm out in one of Tokyo's extremely cheap bar districts having skewers and beers for less than $10
- franciscop 4y ago
  Do you know numbers about how much housing is sponsored by the companies in Japan? Maybe that's what is making the difference since it's not counted neither as salary, nor as the price of the house? I know some large companies sponsor partially or totally the housing of thousands of their employees, again skewing prices greatly. For example if Tanaka's salary is $500 lower because the company is partially paying for their place, that means on paper his salary is lower, the price of the place is MUCH lower, and the ratio of housing/salary is also lower, than if he received those $500 and then used it to pay for the house.
  - wst_ 4y ago
    They aren't from my experience working in two major Japanese companies. Sometimes they'll pay your network bill if WFH is allowed, but that's basically it. Not sure about smaller companies, but honestly, I'd be surprised.
    - franciscop 4y ago
      They definitely do, I was paid for it working at a Japanese company, and I know multiple personal cases where that happened as well (one was a dormitory, another full housing, and another partial housing). The internet is full of evidence that it happens, so my question is "how often?". e.g. https://www.gtalent.jp/blog/japanwork-en/social-insurance-welfare-en/housing-allowance-en https://www.gtalent.jp/blog/japanwork-en/social-insurance-we... or https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/54fjgf/how_much_does_your_company_pay_for_housing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/54fjgf/how_much_...
      - donw 4y ago
        One of the apartments that I used to rent was owned by a large Japanese firm, specifically for the purpose of renting out at a substantial discount to its employees.
      - wst_ 4y ago
        Maybe it's a thing in foreign company and foreign employees. Plus, note that reddit thread is 6y old and already plenty of answers say are getting nothing from the company. I've never heard of Japanese company paying Japanese employee for rent, even partially. Nor I would expect it to be a common thing. As said, though, I just worked in two companies and just have a bunch of friends, which makes it purely anecdotal.
        franciscop 4y ago
        I specified Japanese company for a reason... I've worked in 3 Japanese companies, 2 being "foreigner" (where they did not offer that) and one traditional Japanese (where they offered that). I know 3 Japanese people (nothing to do with foreigners or foreign companies) that had their house paid by the company totally or partially, and they told me it was common in their company/industry. And those were large industries (train company, hospital, manufacturing). Mine is anecdotal, but from how they described it it's an anecdote involving hundreds to thousands of people indirectly, so I'm very confident that it's not an isolated thing.
spoonjim 4y ago
I lived in 250sqft with a shared bathroom in NYC for 2 years and loved it. Loved in 800 sqft in suburban America for 4 months and couldn’t handle it. In a big city with affordable Third Spaces you can simply live outside of your apartment.
- jbverschoor 4y ago
  The thing is that you’re not living in your apt. You live in the city with all the buzz. In the suburbs you’ll have to get that buzz in your house somehow
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    Generally you move to the suburbs to get away from the buzz.
    - WeylandYutani 4y ago
      In my experience if you hate people the city is actually the best place to live. Yes you're surrounded by a million people but they all ignore you. In rural areas nobody has a personal bubble and you're supposed to do small talk and give a shit. Folks gossip. They know you. The horror...
      - bluefirebrand 4y ago
        Who said anything about hating people? Cities are busy and noisy, suburbs are slower and quieter, and rural areas even slower and even quieter.
        midoridensha 4y ago
        You have to interact with people at some point, even if it's just when you get groceries. In rural areas, everyone knows everyone: you can't stay anonymous. In a big city, you probably don't even know your neighbors, and you choose your own friends.
franciscop 4y ago
I never mentioned anything about prices though :) 550sqft (52sqm) for a single person is unheard of here. Look at the article I shared, unfortunately it cuts off at 30sqm, meaning ALL the houses of 30sqm or more make up 22% of the total. Assuming a normal distribution that peaks around 20sqm/person, you should've lived in the top 1-2% of Tokyo. I feel like Paris' 20 Arrondissements is too small, comparable to Zone 1 of London and "Yamanote area" in Tokyo, while New York 5 boroughs is a lot bigger and more comparable with 23 Wards. But anyway let's go with it, since at least it's much better than comparing it with Tokyo Metropolitan. With Airbnb (which is usually a lot more expensive than long-term rental) I can find a bunch of places for under 1k USD: https://imgur.com/a/FIODYlo https://imgur.com/a/FIODYlo For London I could literally not find any, and for Tokyo also a bunch of places (you might notice that these are way further from the center than the area of Paris, but hey I said that was fair): https://imgur.com/a/0XEvBcT https://imgur.com/a/0XEvBcT So it seems that London is particularly expensive, similar to Tokyo's Yamanote; while Paris 20 Arrondissements are at a similar place as Tokyo 23 wards.
- amrocha 4y ago
  C'mon mate you can't be for real, you can't just look at Airbnb data and make any conclusions about rent from that. They literally target different audiences.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  People living in Tokyo don't check AirBNB to find apartments to rent Unfortunately, the sites they DO use are entirely in Japanese, so you're not going to be able to get usfeful infographic data in a few minutes
- SECProto 4y ago
  Yes, my 550sqft (was a very rough size approximation, 5 yrs ago from memory) was certainly not in Tokyo, and the 4万 (plus utilities) that I paid for rent was seen as expensive. I was just using it as a basis to show that straight space comparisons between japan residences and north american residences aren't reasonable, as everything is geared to smaller living.
flanbiscuit 4y ago
10万円 = 100,000 yen, which is about: USD 675.18 EURO 683.40 GBP 588.43 For anyone who is interested but too lazy to search
- franciscop 4y ago
  We need a disclaimer since from ~last month FX has gone crazy, whether we are using old or new numbers. For me I'm still thinking 10万円 is: USD ~1000 (a bit less, but just insignificant) EUR 800~900 And virtually all articles you find today regarding real estate, USD vs JPY, etc. will be talking with old numbers. It's important to talk about the new numbers, but I'd wait a bit for them to stabilize before being "acktually the yen now is" in articles (I'm not saying parent comment is doing that, just warning that those people are everywhere).
- coobird 4y ago
  Note that the JPY lost about 30% of value this year, while rent (nor wages, nor cost of living) haven't caught up to those figures. For the past few years, the JPY/USD rate was around 110.
- sdrothrock 4y ago
  In terms of costs of living and salary percentage, 100,000 yen feels like it's around $1000 or so. For context, a new grad will probably end up making around 200,000 - 250,000 yen (before taxes) a month at a lot of places.
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  To be clear, in the last one year, the Japanese yen vs US dollar has declined by about 23%: 148 JPY/USD vs 114 JPY/USD. As a result, "dollarised" Tokyo real estate suddenly looks very cheap. For foreign investors / foreign captial, yes, this is true. For local residents / local investors, there is still almost zero inflation here. As a result, local real estate prices are mostly unaffected by USD/JPY FX rates. When looking at real estate expenses from perspective of local residents, it is always best to look at local currency median income. If median income or real estate prices are unchanged relative to local currency median income, who cares(!). The rest is just an article in a financial newspaper!
presentation 4y ago
I lived 3 mins from Asagaya station (10 mins to Shinjuku) with my wife in a 23m2 apartment for 70k yen ($475) and loved it, very sunny apartment in a bustling neighborhood, tons of great street life, with everything I needed arranged very compactly. It requires an adjustment that location, not space, is the luxury (don’t invite friends over, go places with them). Probably part of why there are always so many people on the streets everywhere.

Konichivalue 4y ago

Yes, the numbers are a bit skewed by the fact that more people live alone in Tokyo than Paris or NYC, but it's definitely true that you get more square meters per $ in Tokyo. Also, it is true that people on Tokyo on average earn less than NYC, London and Paris, but they also spend a smaller percentage of their total income on housing, so housing is cheaper in PPP terms too. I'll dig out the exact numbers tomorrow if anyone is interested, but now I'm out in one of Tokyo's extremely cheap bar districts having skewers and beers for less than $10

franciscop 4y ago
Do you know numbers about how much housing is sponsored by the companies in Japan? Maybe that's what is making the difference since it's not counted neither as salary, nor as the price of the house? I know some large companies sponsor partially or totally the housing of thousands of their employees, again skewing prices greatly. For example if Tanaka's salary is $500 lower because the company is partially paying for their place, that means on paper his salary is lower, the price of the place is MUCH lower, and the ratio of housing/salary is also lower, than if he received those $500 and then used it to pay for the house.
- wst_ 4y ago
  They aren't from my experience working in two major Japanese companies. Sometimes they'll pay your network bill if WFH is allowed, but that's basically it. Not sure about smaller companies, but honestly, I'd be surprised.
  - franciscop 4y ago
    They definitely do, I was paid for it working at a Japanese company, and I know multiple personal cases where that happened as well (one was a dormitory, another full housing, and another partial housing). The internet is full of evidence that it happens, so my question is "how often?". e.g. https://www.gtalent.jp/blog/japanwork-en/social-insurance-welfare-en/housing-allowance-en https://www.gtalent.jp/blog/japanwork-en/social-insurance-we... or https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/54fjgf/how_much_does_your_company_pay_for_housing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/54fjgf/how_much_...
    - donw 4y ago
      One of the apartments that I used to rent was owned by a large Japanese firm, specifically for the purpose of renting out at a substantial discount to its employees.
    - wst_ 4y ago
      Maybe it's a thing in foreign company and foreign employees. Plus, note that reddit thread is 6y old and already plenty of answers say are getting nothing from the company. I've never heard of Japanese company paying Japanese employee for rent, even partially. Nor I would expect it to be a common thing. As said, though, I just worked in two companies and just have a bunch of friends, which makes it purely anecdotal.
      - franciscop 4y ago
        I specified Japanese company for a reason... I've worked in 3 Japanese companies, 2 being "foreigner" (where they did not offer that) and one traditional Japanese (where they offered that). I know 3 Japanese people (nothing to do with foreigners or foreign companies) that had their house paid by the company totally or partially, and they told me it was common in their company/industry. And those were large industries (train company, hospital, manufacturing). Mine is anecdotal, but from how they described it it's an anecdote involving hundreds to thousands of people indirectly, so I'm very confident that it's not an isolated thing.

spoonjim 4y ago

I lived in 250sqft with a shared bathroom in NYC for 2 years and loved it. Loved in 800 sqft in suburban America for 4 months and couldn’t handle it. In a big city with affordable Third Spaces you can simply live outside of your apartment.

jbverschoor 4y ago
The thing is that you’re not living in your apt. You live in the city with all the buzz. In the suburbs you’ll have to get that buzz in your house somehow
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  Generally you move to the suburbs to get away from the buzz.
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    In my experience if you hate people the city is actually the best place to live. Yes you're surrounded by a million people but they all ignore you. In rural areas nobody has a personal bubble and you're supposed to do small talk and give a shit. Folks gossip. They know you. The horror...
    - bluefirebrand 4y ago
      Who said anything about hating people? Cities are busy and noisy, suburbs are slower and quieter, and rural areas even slower and even quieter.
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        You have to interact with people at some point, even if it's just when you get groceries. In rural areas, everyone knows everyone: you can't stay anonymous. In a big city, you probably don't even know your neighbors, and you choose your own friends.

franciscop 4y ago

I never mentioned anything about prices though :) 550sqft (52sqm) for a single person is unheard of here. Look at the article I shared, unfortunately it cuts off at 30sqm, meaning ALL the houses of 30sqm or more make up 22% of the total. Assuming a normal distribution that peaks around 20sqm/person, you should've lived in the top 1-2% of Tokyo. I feel like Paris' 20 Arrondissements is too small, comparable to Zone 1 of London and "Yamanote area" in Tokyo, while New York 5 boroughs is a lot bigger and more comparable with 23 Wards. But anyway let's go with it, since at least it's much better than comparing it with Tokyo Metropolitan. With Airbnb (which is usually a lot more expensive than long-term rental) I can find a bunch of places for under 1k USD: https://imgur.com/a/FIODYlo https://imgur.com/a/FIODYlo For London I could literally not find any, and for Tokyo also a bunch of places (you might notice that these are way further from the center than the area of Paris, but hey I said that was fair): https://imgur.com/a/0XEvBcT https://imgur.com/a/0XEvBcT So it seems that London is particularly expensive, similar to Tokyo's Yamanote; while Paris 20 Arrondissements are at a similar place as Tokyo 23 wards.

amrocha 4y ago
C'mon mate you can't be for real, you can't just look at Airbnb data and make any conclusions about rent from that. They literally target different audiences.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Firmwarrior 4y ago
People living in Tokyo don't check AirBNB to find apartments to rent Unfortunately, the sites they DO use are entirely in Japanese, so you're not going to be able to get usfeful infographic data in a few minutes
SECProto 4y ago
Yes, my 550sqft (was a very rough size approximation, 5 yrs ago from memory) was certainly not in Tokyo, and the 4万 (plus utilities) that I paid for rent was seen as expensive. I was just using it as a basis to show that straight space comparisons between japan residences and north american residences aren't reasonable, as everything is geared to smaller living.

flanbiscuit 4y ago

10万円 = 100,000 yen, which is about: USD 675.18 EURO 683.40 GBP 588.43 For anyone who is interested but too lazy to search

franciscop 4y ago
We need a disclaimer since from ~last month FX has gone crazy, whether we are using old or new numbers. For me I'm still thinking 10万円 is: USD ~1000 (a bit less, but just insignificant) EUR 800~900 And virtually all articles you find today regarding real estate, USD vs JPY, etc. will be talking with old numbers. It's important to talk about the new numbers, but I'd wait a bit for them to stabilize before being "acktually the yen now is" in articles (I'm not saying parent comment is doing that, just warning that those people are everywhere).
coobird 4y ago
Note that the JPY lost about 30% of value this year, while rent (nor wages, nor cost of living) haven't caught up to those figures. For the past few years, the JPY/USD rate was around 110.
sdrothrock 4y ago
In terms of costs of living and salary percentage, 100,000 yen feels like it's around $1000 or so. For context, a new grad will probably end up making around 200,000 - 250,000 yen (before taxes) a month at a lot of places.
throwaway2037 4y ago
To be clear, in the last one year, the Japanese yen vs US dollar has declined by about 23%: 148 JPY/USD vs 114 JPY/USD. As a result, "dollarised" Tokyo real estate suddenly looks very cheap. For foreign investors / foreign captial, yes, this is true. For local residents / local investors, there is still almost zero inflation here. As a result, local real estate prices are mostly unaffected by USD/JPY FX rates. When looking at real estate expenses from perspective of local residents, it is always best to look at local currency median income. If median income or real estate prices are unchanged relative to local currency median income, who cares(!). The rest is just an article in a financial newspaper!

presentation 4y ago

I lived 3 mins from Asagaya station (10 mins to Shinjuku) with my wife in a 23m2 apartment for 70k yen ($475) and loved it, very sunny apartment in a bustling neighborhood, tons of great street life, with everything I needed arranged very compactly. It requires an adjustment that location, not space, is the luxury (don’t invite friends over, go places with them). Probably part of why there are always so many people on the streets everywhere.