4 ms·

Introversion/extroversion is probably the most robust aspect of personality--virtually every personality spectrum includes an introversion/extroversion dimensio

Introversion/extroversion is probably the most robust aspect of personality--virtually every personality spectrum includes an introversion/extroversion dimension. However, a lot of people probably misinterpret what it actually means. The best explanation I've heard is that it's essentially about how you "recharge": introverts recharge by being alone, and being in a large social function is draining; extroverts recharge by being in large social functions, and are drained by being alone. Of course, the annoying thing about US culture in particular is that introversion is often seen as something undesirable--witness all the articles about how introverts should learn to be extroverts, where you don't really see the inverse about how extroverts should learn to be introverts.

mihaic 4y ago
The thing is that I recharge by being alone AND by being with friends, and am drained by being with people I don't like. Either I don't fit the standard, or the definition is too narrow.
- shynrou 4y ago
  Then you are probably just in the middle between both. Like with most of these categories it's a spectrum. Also not all being with social is equal. You may converse less together just enjoying the presence. Have deep passionate conversations or the dreaded forced encounters.
mgh2 4y ago
Some research on book "Quiet" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJBzvaylH8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJBzvaylH8
kgermino 4y ago
> Of course, the annoying thing about US culture in particular is that introversion is often seen as something undesirable--witness all the articles about how introverts should learn to be extroverts, where you don't really see the inverse about how extroverts should learn to be introverts. I think part of this is misunderstanding what it means. I'm very introverted, I'm not shy. No one tells me I should practice being extroverted and it feels like the people who say that really mean "you should try learning to be more social" which is related but on a different axis and might genuinely be a good idea for someone in a collaborative environment even if they need to recover after.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Problem being, 'collaborative environment' is aggressively pushed almost everywhere, even areas where the benefit of being 'highly collaborative' is questionable at best. At that point, they are asking introverts to put in more to compensate than extroverts, for something which cannot be confirmed to be an improvement. If anything, most places suffer from being too collaborative at the cost of everything else. 'Silence is golden' seems to have been forgotten.
  - GuB-42 4y ago
    I think the push for "collaboration" is mostly out of interest for the company. They want people to be easily replaceable (for good and bad reasons), which is easier when several people work on the same thing. They also want people to share resources so that they don't have to spend as much, open floor plans are a great example: they are simply cheaper than offices.
    - GoblinSlayer 4y ago
      What I saw is people are just lazy, they need help because they don't want to do anything, and no matter how much you collaborate with them, they won't become your replacement, they just forget everything on spot. That's what happens when people are not suitable for the job. And if it's not enough, add job hopping to the mix.
pessimizer 4y ago
> it's essentially about how you "recharge": introverts recharge by being alone, and being in a large social function is draining; extroverts recharge by being in large social functions, and are drained by being alone. I've literally never heard it explained any other way. There's no real reason to assume that criticism of the concept comes from ignorance of the concept.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Just have to look a couple of comments down to see the most common lay definition: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33421136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33421136
  - Izkata 4y ago
    Or up, this thread was started by someone using a different definition.
- mft_ 4y ago
  I often hear/see it misused as a synonym for various other traits - being shy, or not being comfortable socialising or speaking publicly, for example. I’ve also seen it used as a shield: e.g. someone believing they’re shy because they’re immutably introverted, and therefore believing that is how things will always be.
conductr 4y ago
> witness all the articles about how introverts should learn to be extroverts, where you don't really see the inverse about how extroverts should learn to be introverts. As a means to an end, extroversion has a carrot. Introversion not necessarily. It just doesn’t make sense to tell an extrovert “learn to recharge by yourself” because there isn’t much to gain by going against your norm. Extroversion is only pushed because the resulting social connection have real value. That said, all things in moderation is the key and main point of the article. As a leader, you shouldn’t create an extroverted workplace and expect introverts to perform in that environment for long periods of time. As an introvert, it’s up to you learn to manage your own energy and push back where needed as no one else will.
- scionthefly 4y ago
  It is fascinating that you don't identify self-reflection, individual thought and contemplation, and social rest as having inherent "real value". They do have value. Extroverts just don't acknowledge that value because it isn't what they want to do.
  - moe091 4y ago
    was gonna say the same exact thing. The comment you replied to is and example of internalizing the idea that extroversion is good and introversion isn't - the values of introversion have had their value stripped away in popular consensus
    - conductr 4y ago
      Perhaps poor or incomplete word choices. Those have no value… to the extrovert… because they get it elsewhere, or feel are unnecessary. I’m not an extrovert so can’t speak directly to what their thought process is. But there’s just not a lot of tangible/practical reasons to tell an extrovert “you need to go sit at home and do some self reflection”. Where as, if for example, you’re having trouble fund raising or career pathing the advice of “you should network more” is pretty damn practical.
  - conductr 4y ago
romeros 4y ago
I was introverted my entire life. I enjoyed it. I never really needed any contact with others except for a small circle of people and that too quite infrequently. I definitely recharge by being alone. Sitting in front of my favorite book, listening to music, watching a movie... doing all of these activities alone were something I always looked forward to. Walking along the beach coast, driving a motorcycle all alone were some of my most memorable activities. Then. I got into a relationship briefly for around 6 months. She was extroverted. After 6 months I slowly became gregarious. I enjoyed being around people and going out. I enjoyed building a community of people around me. My entire personality changed. Those who knew me from years back were surprised by my transformation. Previously, I wouldn't say much but now I can talk quite a bit. Its night and day. The problem with labeling oneself is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It becomes your identity and you start putting limitations on yourself. My life was good as an introvert but it was great when I became outgoing. Aaron Swartz had a similar experience. " I believe fervently that intelligence can change and that talents can be learned. Indeed, I’d say I’m almost pathologically growth mindset. But even I began to notice there are some things I have a fixed mindset about. For example, I used to think I was introverted. Everyone had always told me that you were either an extroverted person or an introverted person. From a young age, I was quite shy and bookish, so it seemed obvious: I was an introvert. But as I’ve grown, I’ve found that’s hardly the end of the story. I’ve started to get good at leading a conversation or cracking people up with a joke. I like telling stories at a party a story or buzzing about a room saying ‘hi’ to people. I get a rush from it! Sure, I’m still not the most party-oriented person I know, but I no longer think we fit into any neat introversion/extroversion buckets."
- moe091 4y ago
  Carl Jung, the first person to create a personality typology and to popularize(create?) the introvert/extrovert dichotomy, insisted that engaging your "opposite" type is important for personal growth. "Live what you have not yet lived." That said, he also believed that people do have relatively fixed personality types on a fundamental level - you have both traits(introversion and extraversion) but are inclined to express one more than the other. I don't know if he thought it was impossible to drastically change from one end of the spectrum to the other on a fundamental level, but I know he spoke of cases where peoples superior trait was suppressed(e.g an extrovert might suppress their extroversion if they had bad/traumatic experiences interacting with the outer world) - in those case someone can appear to be an introvert and then reclaim their natural extroversion later in life after dealing with the underlying complex related to their suppression. That's just based on his model of the psyche though - maybe he's wrong and there is no real difference fundamentally, and intro/extrovert is simply a matter of what you express throughout your life without some deeper aspect of the personality guiding it, but his explanation makes more sense to me
zozbot234 4y ago
Doesn't that amount to the same thing? It's easier to "recharge" when you're among people you like and trust. And it's even possible to not like yourself.
astura 4y ago
>introverts recharge by being alone, and being in a large social function is draining; extroverts recharge by being in large social functions, and are drained by being alone. Very few to no people fall into this dichotomy - whether or not I feel "recharged" by social interaction or solitude is not static. It highly depends on my mood, who I've been spending time with lately and and what I've been up to. It also depends on who, specifically, are at the social function. It also has changed at various times in my life.
trashface 4y ago
Its so true that US society is strongly tilted towards extroverts. As an introvert I feel like I'm forced to live on the edge of everything, keeping my head down while still engaging in performative socialization just to keep the extroverts from expressing hostility towards me. Their culture is often one of pushiness, aggressiveness, and wealth/status competition games and none of those appeal to me on any level. Meanwhile its very difficult to find other introverts, no doubt because they are also hiding.
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  >performative socialization Lol, this explains it wonderfully.
somethingreen 4y ago
Honestly, I always found this model terrible also. To me it would imply that e.g. introverts would arrive at a social event active, cheerful, outspoken, comfortable and then as the event progressed they would gradually become quieter, less comfortable, more detached. And extroverts the other way around - would arrive tired (assuming they were alone earlier) and gain steam as the event went on. I can't think of a single person in my life persistently matching either of those. If anything, it seems to better model person's reaction to alcohol.

mihaic 4y ago

The thing is that I recharge by being alone AND by being with friends, and am drained by being with people I don't like. Either I don't fit the standard, or the definition is too narrow.

shynrou 4y ago
Then you are probably just in the middle between both. Like with most of these categories it's a spectrum. Also not all being with social is equal. You may converse less together just enjoying the presence. Have deep passionate conversations or the dreaded forced encounters.

mgh2 4y ago

Some research on book "Quiet" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJBzvaylH8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJBzvaylH8

kgermino 4y ago

> Of course, the annoying thing about US culture in particular is that introversion is often seen as something undesirable--witness all the articles about how introverts should learn to be extroverts, where you don't really see the inverse about how extroverts should learn to be introverts. I think part of this is misunderstanding what it means. I'm very introverted, I'm not shy. No one tells me I should practice being extroverted and it feels like the people who say that really mean "you should try learning to be more social" which is related but on a different axis and might genuinely be a good idea for someone in a collaborative environment even if they need to recover after.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Problem being, 'collaborative environment' is aggressively pushed almost everywhere, even areas where the benefit of being 'highly collaborative' is questionable at best. At that point, they are asking introverts to put in more to compensate than extroverts, for something which cannot be confirmed to be an improvement. If anything, most places suffer from being too collaborative at the cost of everything else. 'Silence is golden' seems to have been forgotten.
- GuB-42 4y ago
  I think the push for "collaboration" is mostly out of interest for the company. They want people to be easily replaceable (for good and bad reasons), which is easier when several people work on the same thing. They also want people to share resources so that they don't have to spend as much, open floor plans are a great example: they are simply cheaper than offices.
  - GoblinSlayer 4y ago
    What I saw is people are just lazy, they need help because they don't want to do anything, and no matter how much you collaborate with them, they won't become your replacement, they just forget everything on spot. That's what happens when people are not suitable for the job. And if it's not enough, add job hopping to the mix.

pessimizer 4y ago

> it's essentially about how you "recharge": introverts recharge by being alone, and being in a large social function is draining; extroverts recharge by being in large social functions, and are drained by being alone. I've literally never heard it explained any other way. There's no real reason to assume that criticism of the concept comes from ignorance of the concept.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
Just have to look a couple of comments down to see the most common lay definition: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33421136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33421136
- Izkata 4y ago
  Or up, this thread was started by someone using a different definition.
mft_ 4y ago
I often hear/see it misused as a synonym for various other traits - being shy, or not being comfortable socialising or speaking publicly, for example. I’ve also seen it used as a shield: e.g. someone believing they’re shy because they’re immutably introverted, and therefore believing that is how things will always be.

conductr 4y ago

> witness all the articles about how introverts should learn to be extroverts, where you don't really see the inverse about how extroverts should learn to be introverts. As a means to an end, extroversion has a carrot. Introversion not necessarily. It just doesn’t make sense to tell an extrovert “learn to recharge by yourself” because there isn’t much to gain by going against your norm. Extroversion is only pushed because the resulting social connection have real value. That said, all things in moderation is the key and main point of the article. As a leader, you shouldn’t create an extroverted workplace and expect introverts to perform in that environment for long periods of time. As an introvert, it’s up to you learn to manage your own energy and push back where needed as no one else will.

scionthefly 4y ago
It is fascinating that you don't identify self-reflection, individual thought and contemplation, and social rest as having inherent "real value". They do have value. Extroverts just don't acknowledge that value because it isn't what they want to do.
- moe091 4y ago
  was gonna say the same exact thing. The comment you replied to is and example of internalizing the idea that extroversion is good and introversion isn't - the values of introversion have had their value stripped away in popular consensus
  - conductr 4y ago
    Perhaps poor or incomplete word choices. Those have no value… to the extrovert… because they get it elsewhere, or feel are unnecessary. I’m not an extrovert so can’t speak directly to what their thought process is. But there’s just not a lot of tangible/practical reasons to tell an extrovert “you need to go sit at home and do some self reflection”. Where as, if for example, you’re having trouble fund raising or career pathing the advice of “you should network more” is pretty damn practical.
- conductr 4y ago

romeros 4y ago

I was introverted my entire life. I enjoyed it. I never really needed any contact with others except for a small circle of people and that too quite infrequently. I definitely recharge by being alone. Sitting in front of my favorite book, listening to music, watching a movie... doing all of these activities alone were something I always looked forward to. Walking along the beach coast, driving a motorcycle all alone were some of my most memorable activities. Then. I got into a relationship briefly for around 6 months. She was extroverted. After 6 months I slowly became gregarious. I enjoyed being around people and going out. I enjoyed building a community of people around me. My entire personality changed. Those who knew me from years back were surprised by my transformation. Previously, I wouldn't say much but now I can talk quite a bit. Its night and day. The problem with labeling oneself is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It becomes your identity and you start putting limitations on yourself. My life was good as an introvert but it was great when I became outgoing. Aaron Swartz had a similar experience. " I believe fervently that intelligence can change and that talents can be learned. Indeed, I’d say I’m almost pathologically growth mindset. But even I began to notice there are some things I have a fixed mindset about. For example, I used to think I was introverted. Everyone had always told me that you were either an extroverted person or an introverted person. From a young age, I was quite shy and bookish, so it seemed obvious: I was an introvert. But as I’ve grown, I’ve found that’s hardly the end of the story. I’ve started to get good at leading a conversation or cracking people up with a joke. I like telling stories at a party a story or buzzing about a room saying ‘hi’ to people. I get a rush from it! Sure, I’m still not the most party-oriented person I know, but I no longer think we fit into any neat introversion/extroversion buckets."

moe091 4y ago
Carl Jung, the first person to create a personality typology and to popularize(create?) the introvert/extrovert dichotomy, insisted that engaging your "opposite" type is important for personal growth. "Live what you have not yet lived." That said, he also believed that people do have relatively fixed personality types on a fundamental level - you have both traits(introversion and extraversion) but are inclined to express one more than the other. I don't know if he thought it was impossible to drastically change from one end of the spectrum to the other on a fundamental level, but I know he spoke of cases where peoples superior trait was suppressed(e.g an extrovert might suppress their extroversion if they had bad/traumatic experiences interacting with the outer world) - in those case someone can appear to be an introvert and then reclaim their natural extroversion later in life after dealing with the underlying complex related to their suppression. That's just based on his model of the psyche though - maybe he's wrong and there is no real difference fundamentally, and intro/extrovert is simply a matter of what you express throughout your life without some deeper aspect of the personality guiding it, but his explanation makes more sense to me

zozbot234 4y ago

Doesn't that amount to the same thing? It's easier to "recharge" when you're among people you like and trust. And it's even possible to not like yourself.

astura 4y ago

>introverts recharge by being alone, and being in a large social function is draining; extroverts recharge by being in large social functions, and are drained by being alone. Very few to no people fall into this dichotomy - whether or not I feel "recharged" by social interaction or solitude is not static. It highly depends on my mood, who I've been spending time with lately and and what I've been up to. It also depends on who, specifically, are at the social function. It also has changed at various times in my life.

trashface 4y ago

Its so true that US society is strongly tilted towards extroverts. As an introvert I feel like I'm forced to live on the edge of everything, keeping my head down while still engaging in performative socialization just to keep the extroverts from expressing hostility towards me. Their culture is often one of pushiness, aggressiveness, and wealth/status competition games and none of those appeal to me on any level. Meanwhile its very difficult to find other introverts, no doubt because they are also hiding.

brokenmachine 4y ago
>performative socialization Lol, this explains it wonderfully.

somethingreen 4y ago

Honestly, I always found this model terrible also. To me it would imply that e.g. introverts would arrive at a social event active, cheerful, outspoken, comfortable and then as the event progressed they would gradually become quieter, less comfortable, more detached. And extroverts the other way around - would arrive tired (assuming they were alone earlier) and gain steam as the event went on. I can't think of a single person in my life persistently matching either of those. If anything, it seems to better model person's reaction to alcohol.