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Timelines matter here. Nation states separated by centuries are different than a child on the tube. At a certain threshold things become human history and we sh

Timelines matter here. Nation states separated by centuries are different than a child on the tube. At a certain threshold things become human history and we should be able to rise above "Finders keepers"/"No it's Mine" arguments over artifacts and instead find the best stewards.

psychphysic 4y ago
What gives us the right to tell Egyptians that they are not the best stewards for their antiquities? Let's flip the narrative because I suspect you've spent too much time thinking about this problem only from one side. And I know this is far fetched. Let's imagine the objects began vanishing and it became apparent an alien nation had taken them for safe keeping. They say Earth is not safe for these objects, they know how to maintain them and inspect them better than humans can. These objects will be viewed by trillions of beings on distant planets next to other objects they safeguard from other planets. Planets we could never possibly visit maybe the Jeff Bezos' and Musk's of the world get to visit and look at these objects. Would you say, oh I'm sure they know how to look after and appreciate those objects better than we do? I suspect not and ultimately you may realise this is really the same old might is right ideology.
- jterrys 4y ago
  >What gives us the right to tell Egyptians that they are not the best stewards for their antiquities? Well, for one, modern Egyptians have hardly anything in common with their ancient Egyptian-Pyramid-Building ancestors, even genetically they're fairly different since the Arab invasions...they profit off the tourism industry of these ruins, and the country actively has segments of the population that still considers them heresy and wants to destroy them. But the tourism brings in a LOT of money, so any valuable artifact is important. There's a large black market of stolen artifacts. Written Papyrus scrolls are illegally found and broken up into small pieces and sold as cheap kitch, making deciphering the original document impossible. Even to this day. >And I know this is far fetched. Let's imagine the objects began vanishing and it became apparent an alien nation had taken them for safe keeping. Their objects didn't "vanish". In your example, it would be like Aliens coming in and began digging through our piles of rubble that we long didn't give a shit about and found something valuable. Nothing was stolen. At worst, they came and conquered our lands and dominated us for 50 years, and still...they went digging through our rubble and found valuable shit that we didn't care about. We used the big rock piles of old buildings that the heretics built ages ago to build our homes, apparently there was more to it... even though in hindsight we probably damaged these precious relics in the process but let's not even get to that. Suddenly, our old trash is valuable. Culturally, historically, we have little in common with this trash, but it's apparently valuable to someone else. They took it. Decades later we learn a lot more about these objects through these Aliens, and we understand why they are important to our history. We now want them back. And we are...acting entitled because we feel like they stole them from us? From our trash piles? It just sounds like sour grapes to me. This is the situation we are in right now, at least with the example of Egypt. Look up "Mummy Brown" to see just how much Egyptians gave a shit about Egyptian history and culture until the British came and gave it value. I don't discount that the educated metropolitan Egyptians legitimately care about these artifacts by the way, but there's still segments of the country that only see it as profiteering opportunities, and worse still, want to destroy them. I don't get the entitlement that they deserve these artifacts back. They didn't care about them until someone else found them and gave them value. All of a sudden it's now relevant again? After they told us why its important?
  - psychphysic 4y ago
    I think we disagree fundamentally about rights in this situation. It's their objects and it'll never be ours. We wouldn't let Egypt come into Britain unearth items and take them back to Egypt. Ultimately that they couldn't stop us makes it okay for you. For me that is just 'might is right'. In the story above the kid neglected his tablet. That doesn't make it mine if I want it. My nephew will often cry if I start playing with a toy despite him originally neglecting it. I give him his toy. Because it's his. If I found a childhood toy in a friend's backyard I wouldn't walk off with it. It's still his. Should he die it would belong to his estate. When these objects were taken, most of the time laws were broken. No one questions this. Occasionally it was just bullied away. Sometimes it was just stolen. People are still stealing objects from other countries. And it is wrong no matter how much they think they would value it more. [0] [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-61274804 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-61274804
    - jterrys 4y ago
      I think you're not really seeing my point. Nobody here is a kid. You acting as an adult comes off from a position of benevolence towards children, which is in its own way belittling to Egyptians as a former colony of England. Like England the parent should do the 'right thing' in your opinion to Egypt its child. Modern Egyptians don't have anything in common with ancient Egyptians. The artifacts found were in places long abandoned and forgotten, sometimes in places looted in antiquity. Sometimes in the middle of the desert. I don't understand what laws you think were broken. The British didn't raid any museums or enter people's homes (in so much as dig beneath them where the people had NO idea anything was there). They actually built the museums in Cairo where these artifacts are stored. Is there a proportion of artifacts that were taken from Egyptians, possibly stolen by the British? Absolutely. But the modern Egyptians owning those artifacts have so little in common with the ancient Egyptians that their own possession comes from theft anyway. The difference is the British used them for archeological purposes that gave the artifact a different value. There is so little claim to genealogical ancestry by modern Egyptians that its preposterous to even have this conversation from. Especially when they've been looting and smashing grave sites since antiquity. [0] The history of ancient Egypt is the history of the World at this point. But its within the interests of Egypt As The State to safeguard its treasures because they derive their (quite profitable) national identity from it. [0]https://nyupress.org/9781479820078/a-physician-on-the-nile/ https://nyupress.org/9781479820078/a-physician-on-the-nile/ FWIW, archeological expeditions happen in foreign countries all the time, and the ownership of found objects is pretty clearly negotiated before a dig site is even planned. It would be fucking stupid for a university to finance a trip where it actually can't possess or at least lease out the items it finds. Obviously, in countries embattled by instability and corruption it's much harder to fairly negotiate the status of artifacts, like in the article you linked.

psychphysic 4y ago

What gives us the right to tell Egyptians that they are not the best stewards for their antiquities? Let's flip the narrative because I suspect you've spent too much time thinking about this problem only from one side. And I know this is far fetched. Let's imagine the objects began vanishing and it became apparent an alien nation had taken them for safe keeping. They say Earth is not safe for these objects, they know how to maintain them and inspect them better than humans can. These objects will be viewed by trillions of beings on distant planets next to other objects they safeguard from other planets. Planets we could never possibly visit maybe the Jeff Bezos' and Musk's of the world get to visit and look at these objects. Would you say, oh I'm sure they know how to look after and appreciate those objects better than we do? I suspect not and ultimately you may realise this is really the same old might is right ideology.

jterrys 4y ago
>What gives us the right to tell Egyptians that they are not the best stewards for their antiquities? Well, for one, modern Egyptians have hardly anything in common with their ancient Egyptian-Pyramid-Building ancestors, even genetically they're fairly different since the Arab invasions...they profit off the tourism industry of these ruins, and the country actively has segments of the population that still considers them heresy and wants to destroy them. But the tourism brings in a LOT of money, so any valuable artifact is important. There's a large black market of stolen artifacts. Written Papyrus scrolls are illegally found and broken up into small pieces and sold as cheap kitch, making deciphering the original document impossible. Even to this day. >And I know this is far fetched. Let's imagine the objects began vanishing and it became apparent an alien nation had taken them for safe keeping. Their objects didn't "vanish". In your example, it would be like Aliens coming in and began digging through our piles of rubble that we long didn't give a shit about and found something valuable. Nothing was stolen. At worst, they came and conquered our lands and dominated us for 50 years, and still...they went digging through our rubble and found valuable shit that we didn't care about. We used the big rock piles of old buildings that the heretics built ages ago to build our homes, apparently there was more to it... even though in hindsight we probably damaged these precious relics in the process but let's not even get to that. Suddenly, our old trash is valuable. Culturally, historically, we have little in common with this trash, but it's apparently valuable to someone else. They took it. Decades later we learn a lot more about these objects through these Aliens, and we understand why they are important to our history. We now want them back. And we are...acting entitled because we feel like they stole them from us? From our trash piles? It just sounds like sour grapes to me. This is the situation we are in right now, at least with the example of Egypt. Look up "Mummy Brown" to see just how much Egyptians gave a shit about Egyptian history and culture until the British came and gave it value. I don't discount that the educated metropolitan Egyptians legitimately care about these artifacts by the way, but there's still segments of the country that only see it as profiteering opportunities, and worse still, want to destroy them. I don't get the entitlement that they deserve these artifacts back. They didn't care about them until someone else found them and gave them value. All of a sudden it's now relevant again? After they told us why its important?
- psychphysic 4y ago
  I think we disagree fundamentally about rights in this situation. It's their objects and it'll never be ours. We wouldn't let Egypt come into Britain unearth items and take them back to Egypt. Ultimately that they couldn't stop us makes it okay for you. For me that is just 'might is right'. In the story above the kid neglected his tablet. That doesn't make it mine if I want it. My nephew will often cry if I start playing with a toy despite him originally neglecting it. I give him his toy. Because it's his. If I found a childhood toy in a friend's backyard I wouldn't walk off with it. It's still his. Should he die it would belong to his estate. When these objects were taken, most of the time laws were broken. No one questions this. Occasionally it was just bullied away. Sometimes it was just stolen. People are still stealing objects from other countries. And it is wrong no matter how much they think they would value it more. [0] [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-61274804 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-61274804
  - jterrys 4y ago
    I think you're not really seeing my point. Nobody here is a kid. You acting as an adult comes off from a position of benevolence towards children, which is in its own way belittling to Egyptians as a former colony of England. Like England the parent should do the 'right thing' in your opinion to Egypt its child. Modern Egyptians don't have anything in common with ancient Egyptians. The artifacts found were in places long abandoned and forgotten, sometimes in places looted in antiquity. Sometimes in the middle of the desert. I don't understand what laws you think were broken. The British didn't raid any museums or enter people's homes (in so much as dig beneath them where the people had NO idea anything was there). They actually built the museums in Cairo where these artifacts are stored. Is there a proportion of artifacts that were taken from Egyptians, possibly stolen by the British? Absolutely. But the modern Egyptians owning those artifacts have so little in common with the ancient Egyptians that their own possession comes from theft anyway. The difference is the British used them for archeological purposes that gave the artifact a different value. There is so little claim to genealogical ancestry by modern Egyptians that its preposterous to even have this conversation from. Especially when they've been looting and smashing grave sites since antiquity. [0] The history of ancient Egypt is the history of the World at this point. But its within the interests of Egypt As The State to safeguard its treasures because they derive their (quite profitable) national identity from it. [0]https://nyupress.org/9781479820078/a-physician-on-the-nile/ https://nyupress.org/9781479820078/a-physician-on-the-nile/ FWIW, archeological expeditions happen in foreign countries all the time, and the ownership of found objects is pretty clearly negotiated before a dig site is even planned. It would be fucking stupid for a university to finance a trip where it actually can't possess or at least lease out the items it finds. Obviously, in countries embattled by instability and corruption it's much harder to fairly negotiate the status of artifacts, like in the article you linked.