7 ms·

I dislike the introvert/extrovert dichotomy, especially in the oversimplified US interpretation that has now become global. I'm for instance gregarious and outg

by mihaic 4y ago

I dislike the introvert/extrovert dichotomy, especially in the oversimplified US interpretation that has now become global. I'm for instance gregarious and outgoing with people I like, even if I might have met them very recently. At the same time, I may have an instinctive dislike/mismatch reaction for someone in the first few minutes of meeting them, and then it's a struggle to go through polite conversation (circumstances might force me to hang in there). The article is a bit short on how "introverts" can improve their interactions, but it would surely help to not label people inside these limited buckets and push everyone to communicate and interact with others better.

ta988 4y ago
It is yet another easy dichotomy for low quality pseudo-journalism and LinkedIn/medium posts of attention seeking writers. It was the same with the whole millennial, gen XYZ people putting stickers on things and inventing irreproducible rules based on short-sighted observations of non-representative samples.
deepstack 4y ago
Sounds about right. There is no real introvert or extrovert. Just people who like hanging out with and people we don't. With people whom we like to hangout with we are extrovert, and other then we are introvert.
- mrtranscendence 4y ago
  This is remarkably reductive. Some people -- including me -- would prefer not to hang out with anyone, including people they ostensibly like. For some, the scope of people with whom they'd be comfortable hanging out is quite low. If we can't call such people introverts, then I don't know why we bother making up words for things at all.
- danaris 4y ago
  This is absolutely, scientifically, false. Introversion and extraversion are very robustly defined and proven traits. Maybe you don't understand what they are, or maybe you're one of those people who's not strongly one or the other so it seems to you like "everyone" just has both of those, but there is no real question about whether the traits exist.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > This is absolutely, scientifically, false. You are overly confident in an unhelpful way here.
    - danaris 4y ago
      How would you react if someone came in and said "there is no real gravity; it's just that the earth loves us very much"? Or "there are no viruses and bacteria; we get sick from bad air and evil spirits"? That's more or less the level of wrong that deepstack is. The Big 5 Personality Inventory is probably the most robust, reproducible piece of psychological science we've got, and while there might be arguments that it needs more nuance in places, the bare existence of introversion and extraversion as traits is not even slightly in question in the scientific community. Your feeling that it might not be true—or that I'm "overly confident" in its truth—just doesn't hold up to decades of scientific consensus.
      - LocalH 4y ago
        Almost like it's more of a spectrum than a binary dichotomy :thinkies:
      - deepstack 4y ago
        >How would you react if someone came in and said "there is no real gravity; it's just that the earth loves us very much"? Or "there are no viruses and bacteria; we get sick from bad air and evil spirits"? Gravity can be measured more objectively than social science (such as psychology) concept such as introvert/extrovert, which is determined by committees such as DSM IV or maybe now V. Introversion and extraversion are just one thing that is measured within a certain context.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mrtranscendence 4y ago
> it would surely help to not label people Would it help? For better or worse, people tend to like having a label that bundles up characteristics; it puts a face on a complex of factors that might be bothering them, and it facilitates communication. It's easier to say "I'm mostly an introvert, but I'm friendly with people whom I like" than it is to go into detail. Further, although you can push everyone to communicate and interact with others better, there is a large subset of people for whom that's difficult. By pushing them to interact with others "better" without acknowledging that, you could be doing them a disservice. Labels, even imperfect ones, can make it easier to do that acknowledgement.
- epicide 4y ago
  I see it as a bit of both. Labels can and absolutely do help people in the ways you describe. You might be down about a certain characteristic of yours until you discover others like yourself. What once made you feel like an outcast is now how you are able to maintain a sense of belonging in a community. Everybody deserves that. However, in my experience, the issue is when that label feedbacks so heavily and so strongly as to become a defining piece of one's identity. It can easily become less about self-exploration and understanding and more about fitting in. The difference between the two is very subtle and I'm intentionally being very non-prescriptive about it as I believe that line is different for everybody. You can sort of apply Goodhart's Law to it. As it shifts into being a target for who you should be, it ceases to be a good way to measure who you are.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  Yeah the label helps to understand your own condition.
jcranmer 4y ago
Introversion/extroversion is probably the most robust aspect of personality--virtually every personality spectrum includes an introversion/extroversion dimension. However, a lot of people probably misinterpret what it actually means. The best explanation I've heard is that it's essentially about how you "recharge": introverts recharge by being alone, and being in a large social function is draining; extroverts recharge by being in large social functions, and are drained by being alone. Of course, the annoying thing about US culture in particular is that introversion is often seen as something undesirable--witness all the articles about how introverts should learn to be extroverts, where you don't really see the inverse about how extroverts should learn to be introverts.
- mihaic 4y ago
  The thing is that I recharge by being alone AND by being with friends, and am drained by being with people I don't like. Either I don't fit the standard, or the definition is too narrow.
  - shynrou 4y ago
    Then you are probably just in the middle between both. Like with most of these categories it's a spectrum. Also not all being with social is equal. You may converse less together just enjoying the presence. Have deep passionate conversations or the dreaded forced encounters.
- mgh2 4y ago
  Some research on book "Quiet" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJBzvaylH8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJBzvaylH8
- kgermino 4y ago
  > Of course, the annoying thing about US culture in particular is that introversion is often seen as something undesirable--witness all the articles about how introverts should learn to be extroverts, where you don't really see the inverse about how extroverts should learn to be introverts. I think part of this is misunderstanding what it means. I'm very introverted, I'm not shy. No one tells me I should practice being extroverted and it feels like the people who say that really mean "you should try learning to be more social" which is related but on a different axis and might genuinely be a good idea for someone in a collaborative environment even if they need to recover after.
Shorel 4y ago
I think the main reason for the "introverts" draining, is a set of preconceived notions about social interactions, they expect certain answers and not receiving them will be frustrating and confusing. Therefore, the best thing they can learn is to be "outcome independent" in all their social interactions.
- romeros 4y ago
  The real reason why for "introverts" social interactions are draining is because they would rather do something else that is very nice and comfortable that they are very used to. i.e Staying alone + eating tacos + Watching Netflix etc. If you were watching the Super Bowl on a Sunday and you had to go out and meet someone for 15 mins you would find it "draining" too. At the back of your mind you want the conversation to quickly end so you can go back to doing your favorite things. Only when a person genuinely appreciates the advantages that come with making long term long lasting connections and relationships can they even try and make the switch happen. If your social circle is large enough serendipitous things start to happen.. i.e a crazy job opportunity or getting funding or an amazing partner way out of your league etc.

by mihaic 4y ago

ta988 4y ago

It is yet another easy dichotomy for low quality pseudo-journalism and LinkedIn/medium posts of attention seeking writers. It was the same with the whole millennial, gen XYZ people putting stickers on things and inventing irreproducible rules based on short-sighted observations of non-representative samples.

deepstack 4y ago

Sounds about right. There is no real introvert or extrovert. Just people who like hanging out with and people we don't. With people whom we like to hangout with we are extrovert, and other then we are introvert.

mrtranscendence 4y ago
This is remarkably reductive. Some people -- including me -- would prefer not to hang out with anyone, including people they ostensibly like. For some, the scope of people with whom they'd be comfortable hanging out is quite low. If we can't call such people introverts, then I don't know why we bother making up words for things at all.
danaris 4y ago
This is absolutely, scientifically, false. Introversion and extraversion are very robustly defined and proven traits. Maybe you don't understand what they are, or maybe you're one of those people who's not strongly one or the other so it seems to you like "everyone" just has both of those, but there is no real question about whether the traits exist.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > This is absolutely, scientifically, false. You are overly confident in an unhelpful way here.
  - danaris 4y ago
    How would you react if someone came in and said "there is no real gravity; it's just that the earth loves us very much"? Or "there are no viruses and bacteria; we get sick from bad air and evil spirits"? That's more or less the level of wrong that deepstack is. The Big 5 Personality Inventory is probably the most robust, reproducible piece of psychological science we've got, and while there might be arguments that it needs more nuance in places, the bare existence of introversion and extraversion as traits is not even slightly in question in the scientific community. Your feeling that it might not be true—or that I'm "overly confident" in its truth—just doesn't hold up to decades of scientific consensus.
    - LocalH 4y ago
      Almost like it's more of a spectrum than a binary dichotomy :thinkies:
    - deepstack 4y ago
      >How would you react if someone came in and said "there is no real gravity; it's just that the earth loves us very much"? Or "there are no viruses and bacteria; we get sick from bad air and evil spirits"? Gravity can be measured more objectively than social science (such as psychology) concept such as introvert/extrovert, which is determined by committees such as DSM IV or maybe now V. Introversion and extraversion are just one thing that is measured within a certain context.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mrtranscendence 4y ago

> it would surely help to not label people Would it help? For better or worse, people tend to like having a label that bundles up characteristics; it puts a face on a complex of factors that might be bothering them, and it facilitates communication. It's easier to say "I'm mostly an introvert, but I'm friendly with people whom I like" than it is to go into detail. Further, although you can push everyone to communicate and interact with others better, there is a large subset of people for whom that's difficult. By pushing them to interact with others "better" without acknowledging that, you could be doing them a disservice. Labels, even imperfect ones, can make it easier to do that acknowledgement.

epicide 4y ago
I see it as a bit of both. Labels can and absolutely do help people in the ways you describe. You might be down about a certain characteristic of yours until you discover others like yourself. What once made you feel like an outcast is now how you are able to maintain a sense of belonging in a community. Everybody deserves that. However, in my experience, the issue is when that label feedbacks so heavily and so strongly as to become a defining piece of one's identity. It can easily become less about self-exploration and understanding and more about fitting in. The difference between the two is very subtle and I'm intentionally being very non-prescriptive about it as I believe that line is different for everybody. You can sort of apply Goodhart's Law to it. As it shifts into being a target for who you should be, it ceases to be a good way to measure who you are.
lamontcg 4y ago
Yeah the label helps to understand your own condition.

jcranmer 4y ago

Introversion/extroversion is probably the most robust aspect of personality--virtually every personality spectrum includes an introversion/extroversion dimension. However, a lot of people probably misinterpret what it actually means. The best explanation I've heard is that it's essentially about how you "recharge": introverts recharge by being alone, and being in a large social function is draining; extroverts recharge by being in large social functions, and are drained by being alone. Of course, the annoying thing about US culture in particular is that introversion is often seen as something undesirable--witness all the articles about how introverts should learn to be extroverts, where you don't really see the inverse about how extroverts should learn to be introverts.

mihaic 4y ago
The thing is that I recharge by being alone AND by being with friends, and am drained by being with people I don't like. Either I don't fit the standard, or the definition is too narrow.
- shynrou 4y ago
  Then you are probably just in the middle between both. Like with most of these categories it's a spectrum. Also not all being with social is equal. You may converse less together just enjoying the presence. Have deep passionate conversations or the dreaded forced encounters.
mgh2 4y ago
Some research on book "Quiet" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJBzvaylH8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJBzvaylH8
kgermino 4y ago
> Of course, the annoying thing about US culture in particular is that introversion is often seen as something undesirable--witness all the articles about how introverts should learn to be extroverts, where you don't really see the inverse about how extroverts should learn to be introverts. I think part of this is misunderstanding what it means. I'm very introverted, I'm not shy. No one tells me I should practice being extroverted and it feels like the people who say that really mean "you should try learning to be more social" which is related but on a different axis and might genuinely be a good idea for someone in a collaborative environment even if they need to recover after.

Shorel 4y ago

I think the main reason for the "introverts" draining, is a set of preconceived notions about social interactions, they expect certain answers and not receiving them will be frustrating and confusing. Therefore, the best thing they can learn is to be "outcome independent" in all their social interactions.

romeros 4y ago
The real reason why for "introverts" social interactions are draining is because they would rather do something else that is very nice and comfortable that they are very used to. i.e Staying alone + eating tacos + Watching Netflix etc. If you were watching the Super Bowl on a Sunday and you had to go out and meet someone for 15 mins you would find it "draining" too. At the back of your mind you want the conversation to quickly end so you can go back to doing your favorite things. Only when a person genuinely appreciates the advantages that come with making long term long lasting connections and relationships can they even try and make the switch happen. If your social circle is large enough serendipitous things start to happen.. i.e a crazy job opportunity or getting funding or an amazing partner way out of your league etc.