11 ms·

XMPP & SIP There you are :)

josteink 4y ago
XMPP doesn't (to my knowledge) have any good, standardized way of dealing with offline communications and catching up with messages. SIP tried to do too much, was overly complex, XML-based and ended up doing nothing well enough to establish itself as a market/community favourite. "Nobody" outside telecoms does SIP, and I think that tells all one needs to know wrt market-penetration. These days I'm rooting for matrix[1]. Matrix seems to solve the issues people want IM to solve, it federates, and supports bridging to other types of networks which aren't matrix-based. It's not perfect. It may not be the final IM-solution to rule them all. But for me at least, it's a good, working solution for a federated, decentralized platform (in the original sense, not crypto hog-wash sense) for the IM needs I have. It might "just" be one step towards a better solution, but I'm sure the experiences people have with using and developing matrix is crucial in forming the solution-space in the right direction. We're not going to get to a decentralized and "good enough" solution unless someone is willing to walk down this road and take the first bumps for the team. I got my own instance, my own users, my own federated channels, serving my communities. Are you? [1] https://matrix.org/ https://matrix.org/
- edhelas 4y ago
  > XMPP doesn't (to my knowledge) have any good, standardized way of dealing with offline communications and catching up with messages. XEP-0313: Message Archive Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html > This document defines a protocol to query and control an archive of messages stored on a server. Since 2012. Implemented in all the major servers and clients for at least 5 to 10 years now.
  - kitkat_new 4y ago
    > XEP-0313: Message Archive Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html" he said "good" MAM does not work with encryption and multiple devices, it relies on potentially different servers for each room -> other server goes down -> part of your history is lost, it is only for MUCs
    - MattJ100 4y ago
      > MAM does not work with encryption and multiple devices False. MAM is explicitly designed for use with multiple devices. OMEMO is fully compatible with MAM and multiple devices too. > it relies on potentially different servers for each room In XMPP, as deployed on the public network, each group is responsible for hosting its own data. That is, they do not replicate the group data and state between all federating servers that are part of the group in the way Matrix does. If the group goes down permanently and you do not have the history from the group saved locally in your client, you are correct that the data for that group is lost. Most XMPP clients default to keeping history on the user's device, rather than treating the server as a permanently available source of history. My experience is that this is good enough for most people, and the extra complexity of fully replicating groups is not necessary for the average person. That's not to say it doesn't have some uses (for which XMPP does have solutions, such as FMUC, they just aren't usually implemented or deployed on the public network - https://www.isode.com/whitepapers/federated-muc.html https://www.isode.com/whitepapers/federated-muc.html ). > it is only for MUCs This is also false, as you can see from even a cursory reading of the spec.
      - kitkat_new 4y ago
        > False. MAM is explicitly designed for use with multiple devices. OMEMO is fully compatible with MAM and multiple devices too. please expand on how OMEMO encrypted messages land readable on other devices of you through MAM > If the group goes down permanently = certain single server in the group > My experience is that this is good enough for most people In mine it isn't when virtually anyone is (supposed to be) able to run a server, which he might abandon due to lost interest or might fail due to unprofessional maintenance. > This is also false, as you can see from even a cursory reading of the spec. you take that point
        Semaphor 4y ago
        > please expand on how OMEMO encrypted messages land readable on other devices of you through MAM Not GP, and I don’t know how it works technically, but I can confirm that OMEMO encrypted messages sync to other devices when I come back online there.
- edhelas 4y ago
  > and supports bridging to other types of networks which aren't matrix-based https://sr.ht/~nicoco/slidge/ https://sr.ht/~nicoco/slidge/ Turn any XMPP client into that fancy multiprotocol chat app that every cool kid want. > Signal, Telegram, Discord, Steam, Mattermost, Facebook, Skype https://spectrum.im/ https://spectrum.im/ Spectrum is an open source instant messaging transport. It allows users to chat together even when they are using different IM networks. https://github.com/louiz/biboumi https://github.com/louiz/biboumi Biboumi is an XMPP gateway that connects to IRC servers and translates between the two protocols. It can be used to access IRC channels using any XMPP client as if these channels were XMPP MUCs. ------ I'm using all of those daily to connect to all my other accounts, Slidge is the most modern one and is having lots of features ported to the modern XMPP extensions.
  - jrepinc 4y ago
    > https://sr.ht/~nicoco/slidge/ https://sr.ht/~nicoco/slidge/ Turn any XMPP client into that fancy multiprotocol chat app that every cool kid want. Nice, didn't know this exists. Thanks for the link.
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      Here’s the HN discussion thread for the beta announcement: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32713750 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32713750 I was planning to install it, but still didn’t find the time yet :/
- zamadatix 4y ago
  XMPP and SIP are decentralized, federated, and self hostable as well and they had bridges before matrix was a thing. The main draw for matrix for me is it has the most modern bridges. Not because the protocol allows it but because it’s where people have been making them lately. The main downside I’ve noticed is large rooms take an inordinate amount of time to join and sync. I still enjoy matrix I just don’t think it’s as unique as this pitch makes it out to be.
  - zaik 4y ago
    People make bridges for XMPP (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33420784 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33420784 ) but bridges are just band-aids anyways: Most important they don't support e2e encryption. If we want to have messenger interoperability we need standardization. Matrix should focus on compliance with the existing XMPP internet standard instead of inventing yet another set of incompatible primitives.
  - mnot 4y ago
    The IETF has given up on XMPP for its own chat service.
    - MattJ100 4y ago
      What the IETF (or any organization in a similar position) sought for its discussions was an existing off-the-shelf product, not a protocol. They chose Zulip, because it is a product that has various features that are attractive for the IETF's use cases. The protocol it uses internally is pretty irrelevant from the IETF's perspective, as a user. If the IETF had developed its own chat tool and did not use XMPP for that, your comment would have more weight.
- MattJ100 4y ago
  > XMPP doesn't (to my knowledge) have any good, standardized way of dealing with offline communications and catching up with messages. It does. Incoming and outgoing messages are synchronized across all your devices. Work on that feature began in 2012 (before Matrix was born), and is specified in XEP-0313: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html Due to people having multiple devices, and those devices having unreliable connections, it's obviously an essential part of any XMPP-based IM client these days. It's been required for full XMPP IM compliance since at least 2018.
- mxuribe 4y ago
  I have to agree with @josteink ...while i have used xmpp for a few years quite happily, i am very much a matrix fanboy for the last few years. And, maybe sure, matrix might not represent the only/last/ultimate solution here...maybe its only half-way there...but i do favor its direction. So, for now, matrix (for me anyway) is the best direction forward. The more federated, interoperable, adoptable, and freedom-able that we have as a protocol, i think all the better. ....until we have intermingled both into the next, new best protocol: XMPatrix lol :-)
- userbinator 4y ago
  SIP is not XML-based, as far as I know. It looks more like HTTP.
Spivak 4y ago
XMPP with a frozen set of extensions could work but without that you’ll end up creating iMessage where leaving the bubble has to fall back to the lowest common denominator or the Chrome problem where one large vendor will go buck wild and force everyone to play catch-up forever.
- upofadown 4y ago
  XMPP without a frozen set of extensions seems to work quite well in practice. If a client doesn't support something then that something just doesn't work. The "X" in XMPP stands to extensible... How well that actually works is XMPP's killer feature...
  - samus 4y ago
    The problem is that the core feature set might not contain everything that people nowadays expect from a chat application. At the very least, an updated profile would have to be defined. Ma lot of the extensions have been published a long time ago.
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    XMPP is popular among soldiers and cops. A solider with a sporadic internet connection can fill out a form about what their unit did today and it gets posted to a server when the connection up. In Baltimore cops communicate with XMPP and the messages get loaded into Lotus Notes.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  XMPP has compliance suites (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0459.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0459.html is the most recent version) that lists XEP requirements which a client or server can fulfill. Based on "core" or "advanced" compliance in a certain area, you could pretty easily communicate the level of support. That said, basic things like "user avatars" are categorized as "advanced client" support so whatever "core" functionality is listed is pretty useless to me.
guenthert 4y ago
Is this the right time to ask for a good^Wyour favorite XMPP client on Android and iOS?
- genpfault 4y ago
  > a good XMPP client on Android Conversations[1]? [1]: https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations

XMPP doesn't (to my knowledge) have any good, standardized way of dealing with offline communications and catching up with messages. SIP tried to do too much, was overly complex, XML-based and ended up doing nothing well enough to establish itself as a market/community favourite. "Nobody" outside telecoms does SIP, and I think that tells all one needs to know wrt market-penetration. These days I'm rooting for matrix[1]. Matrix seems to solve the issues people want IM to solve, it federates, and supports bridging to other types of networks which aren't matrix-based. It's not perfect. It may not be the final IM-solution to rule them all. But for me at least, it's a good, working solution for a federated, decentralized platform (in the original sense, not crypto hog-wash sense) for the IM needs I have. It might "just" be one step towards a better solution, but I'm sure the experiences people have with using and developing matrix is crucial in forming the solution-space in the right direction. We're not going to get to a decentralized and "good enough" solution unless someone is willing to walk down this road and take the first bumps for the team. I got my own instance, my own users, my own federated channels, serving my communities. Are you? [1] https://matrix.org/ https://matrix.org/

edhelas 4y ago
> XMPP doesn't (to my knowledge) have any good, standardized way of dealing with offline communications and catching up with messages. XEP-0313: Message Archive Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html > This document defines a protocol to query and control an archive of messages stored on a server. Since 2012. Implemented in all the major servers and clients for at least 5 to 10 years now.
- kitkat_new 4y ago
  > XEP-0313: Message Archive Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html" he said "good" MAM does not work with encryption and multiple devices, it relies on potentially different servers for each room -> other server goes down -> part of your history is lost, it is only for MUCs
  - MattJ100 4y ago
    > MAM does not work with encryption and multiple devices False. MAM is explicitly designed for use with multiple devices. OMEMO is fully compatible with MAM and multiple devices too. > it relies on potentially different servers for each room In XMPP, as deployed on the public network, each group is responsible for hosting its own data. That is, they do not replicate the group data and state between all federating servers that are part of the group in the way Matrix does. If the group goes down permanently and you do not have the history from the group saved locally in your client, you are correct that the data for that group is lost. Most XMPP clients default to keeping history on the user's device, rather than treating the server as a permanently available source of history. My experience is that this is good enough for most people, and the extra complexity of fully replicating groups is not necessary for the average person. That's not to say it doesn't have some uses (for which XMPP does have solutions, such as FMUC, they just aren't usually implemented or deployed on the public network - https://www.isode.com/whitepapers/federated-muc.html https://www.isode.com/whitepapers/federated-muc.html ). > it is only for MUCs This is also false, as you can see from even a cursory reading of the spec.
    - kitkat_new 4y ago
      > False. MAM is explicitly designed for use with multiple devices. OMEMO is fully compatible with MAM and multiple devices too. please expand on how OMEMO encrypted messages land readable on other devices of you through MAM > If the group goes down permanently = certain single server in the group > My experience is that this is good enough for most people In mine it isn't when virtually anyone is (supposed to be) able to run a server, which he might abandon due to lost interest or might fail due to unprofessional maintenance. > This is also false, as you can see from even a cursory reading of the spec. you take that point
      - Semaphor 4y ago
        > please expand on how OMEMO encrypted messages land readable on other devices of you through MAM Not GP, and I don’t know how it works technically, but I can confirm that OMEMO encrypted messages sync to other devices when I come back online there.
edhelas 4y ago
> and supports bridging to other types of networks which aren't matrix-based https://sr.ht/~nicoco/slidge/ https://sr.ht/~nicoco/slidge/ Turn any XMPP client into that fancy multiprotocol chat app that every cool kid want. > Signal, Telegram, Discord, Steam, Mattermost, Facebook, Skype https://spectrum.im/ https://spectrum.im/ Spectrum is an open source instant messaging transport. It allows users to chat together even when they are using different IM networks. https://github.com/louiz/biboumi https://github.com/louiz/biboumi Biboumi is an XMPP gateway that connects to IRC servers and translates between the two protocols. It can be used to access IRC channels using any XMPP client as if these channels were XMPP MUCs. ------ I'm using all of those daily to connect to all my other accounts, Slidge is the most modern one and is having lots of features ported to the modern XMPP extensions.
- jrepinc 4y ago
  > https://sr.ht/~nicoco/slidge/ https://sr.ht/~nicoco/slidge/ Turn any XMPP client into that fancy multiprotocol chat app that every cool kid want. Nice, didn't know this exists. Thanks for the link.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    Here’s the HN discussion thread for the beta announcement: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32713750 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32713750 I was planning to install it, but still didn’t find the time yet :/
zamadatix 4y ago
XMPP and SIP are decentralized, federated, and self hostable as well and they had bridges before matrix was a thing. The main draw for matrix for me is it has the most modern bridges. Not because the protocol allows it but because it’s where people have been making them lately. The main downside I’ve noticed is large rooms take an inordinate amount of time to join and sync. I still enjoy matrix I just don’t think it’s as unique as this pitch makes it out to be.
- zaik 4y ago
  People make bridges for XMPP (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33420784 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33420784 ) but bridges are just band-aids anyways: Most important they don't support e2e encryption. If we want to have messenger interoperability we need standardization. Matrix should focus on compliance with the existing XMPP internet standard instead of inventing yet another set of incompatible primitives.
- mnot 4y ago
  The IETF has given up on XMPP for its own chat service.
  - MattJ100 4y ago
    What the IETF (or any organization in a similar position) sought for its discussions was an existing off-the-shelf product, not a protocol. They chose Zulip, because it is a product that has various features that are attractive for the IETF's use cases. The protocol it uses internally is pretty irrelevant from the IETF's perspective, as a user. If the IETF had developed its own chat tool and did not use XMPP for that, your comment would have more weight.
MattJ100 4y ago
> XMPP doesn't (to my knowledge) have any good, standardized way of dealing with offline communications and catching up with messages. It does. Incoming and outgoing messages are synchronized across all your devices. Work on that feature began in 2012 (before Matrix was born), and is specified in XEP-0313: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html Due to people having multiple devices, and those devices having unreliable connections, it's obviously an essential part of any XMPP-based IM client these days. It's been required for full XMPP IM compliance since at least 2018.
mxuribe 4y ago
I have to agree with @josteink ...while i have used xmpp for a few years quite happily, i am very much a matrix fanboy for the last few years. And, maybe sure, matrix might not represent the only/last/ultimate solution here...maybe its only half-way there...but i do favor its direction. So, for now, matrix (for me anyway) is the best direction forward. The more federated, interoperable, adoptable, and freedom-able that we have as a protocol, i think all the better. ....until we have intermingled both into the next, new best protocol: XMPatrix lol :-)
userbinator 4y ago
SIP is not XML-based, as far as I know. It looks more like HTTP.

Spivak 4y ago

XMPP with a frozen set of extensions could work but without that you’ll end up creating iMessage where leaving the bubble has to fall back to the lowest common denominator or the Chrome problem where one large vendor will go buck wild and force everyone to play catch-up forever.

upofadown 4y ago
XMPP without a frozen set of extensions seems to work quite well in practice. If a client doesn't support something then that something just doesn't work. The "X" in XMPP stands to extensible... How well that actually works is XMPP's killer feature...
- samus 4y ago
  The problem is that the core feature set might not contain everything that people nowadays expect from a chat application. At the very least, an updated profile would have to be defined. Ma lot of the extensions have been published a long time ago.
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  XMPP is popular among soldiers and cops. A solider with a sporadic internet connection can fill out a form about what their unit did today and it gets posted to a server when the connection up. In Baltimore cops communicate with XMPP and the messages get loaded into Lotus Notes.
jeroenhd 4y ago
XMPP has compliance suites (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0459.html https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0459.html is the most recent version) that lists XEP requirements which a client or server can fulfill. Based on "core" or "advanced" compliance in a certain area, you could pretty easily communicate the level of support. That said, basic things like "user avatars" are categorized as "advanced client" support so whatever "core" functionality is listed is pretty useless to me.

guenthert 4y ago

Is this the right time to ask for a good^Wyour favorite XMPP client on Android and iOS?

genpfault 4y ago
> a good XMPP client on Android Conversations[1]? [1]: https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations