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Yesterday I just sent my buddy picture with energy generation in Germany. 32,8% coal!!! So the future will be burning coal to power emission-fee cars. It’s just

by lnsru 4y ago

Yesterday I just sent my buddy picture with energy generation in Germany. 32,8% coal!!! So the future will be burning coal to power emission-fee cars. It’s just shocking nonsense as I see it as an engineer.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Get rid of nukes because Germans are scared of nuclear waste Start burning coal Pretend that nuclear waste from coal released uncontrollably from chimneys and ash dumps does not exists.
marcyb5st 4y ago
I think you are not considering the difference in efficiency between a power plant and a car with an internal combustion engine. Switching to electric just because of that is worth in the long term and additionally, some of the power comes from clean sources so even more so. I saw a video in YT where in a state like Utah in the US an ev becomes greener after the equivalent of few tens of gas tanks (don't remember the number). Will try to find out the sources.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  However Germany tries to spin it they are doing very badly on emissions. > Switching to electric just because of that is worth in the long term Is it, though? Batteries are not exactly environment-friendly and hydrogen seems too often ignored.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    Priorities. Materials used in batteries are something that can be managed, like any other toxic industrial chemicals. Emissions go up in the air, and are creating an extinction-level threat. It's important to think of the former, but trying to turn it into a deal-breaker is just suicidal.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      A justification of those priorities would include an explanation on why hydrogen is being pretty much ignored apart from niche uses. I am not an expert so probably don't know many issues but on the face of it hydrogen seems much less disruptive than batteries. Also, it is a bit easy to claim that we need to rush and have the luxury to make bad decisions. We have had decades and still have decades, and cannot change the whole infrastructure again in 10-20 years...
      - rich_sasha 4y ago
        Hydrogen is generally very hard to store. Batteries have downsides but apart from them, they do work. Hydrogen can either be stored cryogenically (which is problematic in a car), or compressed. In the latter case, hydrogen leaks out through the metal (because its atoms are so small) and worse still, causes embrittlement of the metal. So while we know how to build a battery car today, which is safe and stable, it's much less the case for hydrogen. It's not like you can take eg LNG car tech and just fill it with hydrogen.
- jryhjythtr 4y ago
  >you are not considering the difference in efficiency between a power plant and a car with an internal combustion engine. The well-to-wheels analysis for an EV powered by a largely fossil-fuelled power grid is not good. Transmission and battery losses wipe out most of the (quite small) gains. >a state like Utah in the US an ev becomes greener after the equivalent of few tens of gas tanks Would love to see the source for that. Last time I checked, with a relatively "green" grid (something that almost everywhere in the US is a long way from achieving), the CO2 crossover point for an EV is at 20,000+ miles.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    The sleight of hand is in the definition of 'equivalent'. Batteries are expensive and motors are dirt cheap, so the only EVs with decent range are super high end, performance, luxury models. Compared to a 500hp luxury SUV they're great. Compared to an econobox they use about the same amount of energy per km. They're up if you compare whole system emissions for the car vs. Emissions at a ff plant. If you add in the fugitive methane or horror show that is coal mining and ash they're on par again.
    - jryhjythtr 4y ago
      >They're up if you compare whole system emissions for the car vs. Emissions at a ff plant. The sleight of hand is in the definition of "emissions". If you mean CO2 - then no, not really. If you are powering your EV with a fossil-fuel powered grid, then the transmission and battery losses make up for the small gain in power plant efficiency over an ICE (as I already said). The CO2 argument for an EV only works when the grid has a substantial "green generation" component. If you mean "emissions that are immediately bad for people" - it depends who you are talking about. EVs replace tailpipe emissions at the point of use with centralised emissions, both at the point of manufacture, and at the point of charging power generation (which will most likely be in a Western country with well-controlled emissions). As a cyclist, I have to admit it's nice not to breathe in tailpipe fumes. I try not to worry too much about all the damage being done by EV manufacture far far away from me.
eis 4y ago
While coal was a major part of the electricity generation in Germany, it has been declining rapidly in recent years and is being phased out completely before 2038 which is roughly in line with the switch to EVs. In the meantime renewables, especially wind have been growing rapidly and have accounted for more than 50% of all electricity generation in 2020. In 2021 Wind alone was nearly a quarter of the whole electricity production.
- lnsru 4y ago
  Cool, but is there a way to store electricity generated by renewables? I have no interest in candle light dinner on dark winter day without much wind.
  - eis 4y ago
    Of course there is. Hydro storage is probably the biggest one that has been in use for decades. You pump water up a mountain during over supply and then let it run down through turbines during times where there is no wind/solar etc. There are plenty other methods to store energy but most involve gravity. Batteries can be used for small scale rapid reactions to changes in demand or production. Actually fully switching to EVs as a side effect can create a distributed system of energy storage.
  - tmtvl 4y ago
    Battery storage seems to be working for Australia (https://www.energy-storage.news/australia-surpassed-1gwh-of-annual-battery-storage-deployments-during-2021/ https://www.energy-storage.news/australia-surpassed-1gwh-of-...).
mytailorisrich 4y ago
Here in the UK electricity production is mostly gas (50%+ depending on day/time), so relatively better, but the commitment is to ban sale of new ICE cars in 2030, so 8 years from now... The grid is never going to take that load but nevermind.
poisonborz 4y ago
Except it will be then greatly easier to make those ~60 coal plants greener than the ~50m cars on the roads today.

by lnsru 4y ago

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

Get rid of nukes because Germans are scared of nuclear waste Start burning coal Pretend that nuclear waste from coal released uncontrollably from chimneys and ash dumps does not exists.

marcyb5st 4y ago

I think you are not considering the difference in efficiency between a power plant and a car with an internal combustion engine. Switching to electric just because of that is worth in the long term and additionally, some of the power comes from clean sources so even more so. I saw a video in YT where in a state like Utah in the US an ev becomes greener after the equivalent of few tens of gas tanks (don't remember the number). Will try to find out the sources.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
However Germany tries to spin it they are doing very badly on emissions. > Switching to electric just because of that is worth in the long term Is it, though? Batteries are not exactly environment-friendly and hydrogen seems too often ignored.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  Priorities. Materials used in batteries are something that can be managed, like any other toxic industrial chemicals. Emissions go up in the air, and are creating an extinction-level threat. It's important to think of the former, but trying to turn it into a deal-breaker is just suicidal.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    A justification of those priorities would include an explanation on why hydrogen is being pretty much ignored apart from niche uses. I am not an expert so probably don't know many issues but on the face of it hydrogen seems much less disruptive than batteries. Also, it is a bit easy to claim that we need to rush and have the luxury to make bad decisions. We have had decades and still have decades, and cannot change the whole infrastructure again in 10-20 years...
    - rich_sasha 4y ago
      Hydrogen is generally very hard to store. Batteries have downsides but apart from them, they do work. Hydrogen can either be stored cryogenically (which is problematic in a car), or compressed. In the latter case, hydrogen leaks out through the metal (because its atoms are so small) and worse still, causes embrittlement of the metal. So while we know how to build a battery car today, which is safe and stable, it's much less the case for hydrogen. It's not like you can take eg LNG car tech and just fill it with hydrogen.
jryhjythtr 4y ago
>you are not considering the difference in efficiency between a power plant and a car with an internal combustion engine. The well-to-wheels analysis for an EV powered by a largely fossil-fuelled power grid is not good. Transmission and battery losses wipe out most of the (quite small) gains. >a state like Utah in the US an ev becomes greener after the equivalent of few tens of gas tanks Would love to see the source for that. Last time I checked, with a relatively "green" grid (something that almost everywhere in the US is a long way from achieving), the CO2 crossover point for an EV is at 20,000+ miles.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  The sleight of hand is in the definition of 'equivalent'. Batteries are expensive and motors are dirt cheap, so the only EVs with decent range are super high end, performance, luxury models. Compared to a 500hp luxury SUV they're great. Compared to an econobox they use about the same amount of energy per km. They're up if you compare whole system emissions for the car vs. Emissions at a ff plant. If you add in the fugitive methane or horror show that is coal mining and ash they're on par again.
  - jryhjythtr 4y ago
    >They're up if you compare whole system emissions for the car vs. Emissions at a ff plant. The sleight of hand is in the definition of "emissions". If you mean CO2 - then no, not really. If you are powering your EV with a fossil-fuel powered grid, then the transmission and battery losses make up for the small gain in power plant efficiency over an ICE (as I already said). The CO2 argument for an EV only works when the grid has a substantial "green generation" component. If you mean "emissions that are immediately bad for people" - it depends who you are talking about. EVs replace tailpipe emissions at the point of use with centralised emissions, both at the point of manufacture, and at the point of charging power generation (which will most likely be in a Western country with well-controlled emissions). As a cyclist, I have to admit it's nice not to breathe in tailpipe fumes. I try not to worry too much about all the damage being done by EV manufacture far far away from me.

eis 4y ago

While coal was a major part of the electricity generation in Germany, it has been declining rapidly in recent years and is being phased out completely before 2038 which is roughly in line with the switch to EVs. In the meantime renewables, especially wind have been growing rapidly and have accounted for more than 50% of all electricity generation in 2020. In 2021 Wind alone was nearly a quarter of the whole electricity production.

lnsru 4y ago
Cool, but is there a way to store electricity generated by renewables? I have no interest in candle light dinner on dark winter day without much wind.
- eis 4y ago
  Of course there is. Hydro storage is probably the biggest one that has been in use for decades. You pump water up a mountain during over supply and then let it run down through turbines during times where there is no wind/solar etc. There are plenty other methods to store energy but most involve gravity. Batteries can be used for small scale rapid reactions to changes in demand or production. Actually fully switching to EVs as a side effect can create a distributed system of energy storage.
- tmtvl 4y ago
  Battery storage seems to be working for Australia (https://www.energy-storage.news/australia-surpassed-1gwh-of-annual-battery-storage-deployments-during-2021/ https://www.energy-storage.news/australia-surpassed-1gwh-of-...).

mytailorisrich 4y ago

Here in the UK electricity production is mostly gas (50%+ depending on day/time), so relatively better, but the commitment is to ban sale of new ICE cars in 2030, so 8 years from now... The grid is never going to take that load but nevermind.

poisonborz 4y ago

Except it will be then greatly easier to make those ~60 coal plants greener than the ~50m cars on the roads today.