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I've seen a bunch of them around the UK (Side note: should the title be "EU", presumably it doesn't include the UK, which IS in Europe); I do wonder how we're e

I've seen a bunch of them around the UK (Side note: should the title be "EU", presumably it doesn't include the UK, which IS in Europe); I do wonder how we're ever going to get enough charging points to make all-electric a reality; From houses with no parking, to flats with no parking, car parks with no space to put the electric charge point, all this before we get to the problem that battery tech is a huge money sink. I really want an electric vehicle, it ticks lots of boxes for me, but unlike an ICE vehicle that I can top up in seconds, and which are usually engineered with a decent amount of longevity, the battery in an electric vehicle is likely to be next to useless within 5 or so years of buying it; even if it's good enough for me, who would want to buy it when the advertised second-hand range is down to 50 miles per charge? They seems like an utterly terrible investment to me, and at £50k+ (luxury car price bracket according to UK gov), it is an investment to me if I'm spending that much.

izacus 4y ago
Well, this is why these mandates are made 13 years ahead of time - so infrastructure issues can be addressed and charging points built. People didn't just throw up hands and sit in a corner when petrol stations weren't every 15km of their road and when there was no electric rail anywhere.
- alias_neo 4y ago
  I don't disagree with you, but I also don't see the UK (England in my case) getting much of anything done in _only_ 13 years. I hope I'm wrong, and when we're all forced to have electric vehicles, that we'll be able to charge them, without having to sit at a service station for an hour while it charges. The only reasonable way I see, without affecting productivity of the nation as a whole, is to charge while we sleep, as we do with our phones usually. When I pull in to Shell now to stick Diesel in my car, I see someone sat in their EV playing on their phone while they wait for their vehicle to charge; presumably for an hour plus? this isn't what I want for our futures.
- erik_seaberg 4y ago
  I hope it happens, but the article isn’t reporting any mandate to have more public chargers built.
Reason077 4y ago
The UK already has a ban on new petrol & diesel car sales from 2030, so is a few years ahead of the EU. However, under the current rules, plug-in hybrids will still be permitted.
- alias_neo 4y ago
  I'm aware of the rule here (I'm in England); everyone I know has simply said they'll buy a new ICE car near the deadline to gain some extra longevity. I want to go all-electric, but I cant get on board with the glaring issues that are battery-tech and all-touch interior-controls; Gone are the days where you can buy a car and it'll last 20+ years with maintenance, you buy an electric, at a premium, get a crap interior and a battery that won't hold charge within 5 years, so you can't drive it, and you can't sell it.
  - Reason077 4y ago
    There's plenty of variety in EVs out there now. Lots without "all touch interiors" if that's not your thing. Today's EV batteries will last for 15-20 years, which is the approximate lifetime of most combustion cars today in the UK. Some emerging battery chemistries, like the LFP cells used in some Teslas, may last considerably longer.
    - alias_neo 4y ago
      Interesting to know thanks. How much capacity are we expecting to have after say half of this time? I wonder how this will affect resale value compared to odometer values on ICE vehicles now.
    - AstralStorm 4y ago
      And it is possible to reuse old cells for grid storage etc. If only they were standardized...
- lloeki 4y ago
  Over here there's a ranking system (Crit'Air) for vehicles on the road, largely based off of the EURO-{x} norm. For cars: - 0: EV or hydrogen (a.k.a Zero Emission Vehicle) - 1: plug-in hybrid, LP gaz, EURO-5 or EURO-6 petrol (2011 onwards) - 2: EURO-4 petrol or hybrid (2006-2010), EURO-5 or EURO-6 diesel (2011 onwards) - 3: EURO-2 or EURO-3 petrol or hybrid (1997-2005), EURO-4 diesel (2006-2010) - 4: EURO-3 diesel (2001-2005) - 5: EURO-2 diesel (1997-2004) - unranked: anything older There are two cases where it can apply, on specific geographic Low Emission Zones: - 24/7/365 rules - air quality degradation peaks with more stringent rules for the duration of the event (depends on event magnitude, usually it's capoed at 2) My local LEZ has the following timetable: - 2020: unranked soft-forbidden (warned, not enforced) - 2022: unranked forbidden (enforced), 5 soft forbidden - 2023: 5 forbidden, 4 soft forbidden - 2024: 4+ forbidden, 3 soft forbidden - 2025: 3+ forbidden, 2 soft forbidden - 2028: 2+ forbidden Which leaves us on the road (not sales!) with a soft ban on diesel in 2024, enforced in 2025, and modern petrol+ZEVs in 2028, with full ZEV looming over for 2030. This in turn has effects on sales way before each ban because no one in their right mind would buy a car (new or second hand) that can't be used a couple of years down the road (nor resold, because no one would buy it) I mean, if one buys a diesel today it's going to be soft banned in a little over a year and fined to death (through automated license plate reading) in two years, so essentially some indirect sale ban is already in effect. Apply that reasoning in the 2025-2028 period and it would probably not be a good idea to buy a petrol car either, leaving only ZEVs (i.e EVs since there's no hydrogen powered car on the market yet) Also note that this is not about residency, merely passing through the LEZ makes one eligible for a fine, so this has rippling effects outside the LEZ.
Reason077 4y ago
> "the battery in an electric vehicle is likely to be next to useless within 5 or so years of buying it" Nope, this is an anti-EV myth. Car batteries are not like your phone battery: in most cases they will probably outlast the vehicle itself. Most car manufacturers guarantee the battery for at least 8 years, and in reality they should last a lot longer than that.
- alias_neo 4y ago
  > Nope, this is an anti-EV myth. Car batteries are not like your phone battery I need to do some more reading; one of the biggest things that have put me off are people (claiming) to have lost 30%+ capacity in 3-5 years. > Luxury cars are never a good investment, EV or otherwise. That's not why people buy them. This was not my point, my point was that a "decent" EV in the UK runs you the price of a luxury-car (according to UK gov brackets for what is considered a "luxury car"). A Polestar 2 for example is £50k which puts you in luxury car tax bracket, and also you lose any government incentives for buying an EV because it's a luxury EV. But is a PS2 any more luxury, other than being electric, than a specced Mondeo, Vectra, or Passat?
  - Reason077 4y ago
    > "I need to do some more reading; one of the biggest things that have put me off are people (claiming) to have lost 30%+ capacity in 3-5 years." This was true for some early model EVs, like the early-2010s Nissan LEAFs. But they used different battery technology (chemistry) to todays EVs, and the battery packs lacked thermal management, leading to rapid degradation. > "But is a PS2 any more luxury, other than being electric, than a specced Mondeo, Vectra, or Passat?" I know which I'd rather have. If you were going to spend £50k on a new car today, you'd be mad if it wasn't electric.
    - alias_neo 4y ago
      > I know which I'd rather have. If you were going to spend £50k on a new car today, you'd be mad if it wasn't electric. Well that's my point; why would I spend £50k on a car ;because it's electric; when I could spend say, £35k on a very nice, probably more specced one that isn't?
badpun 4y ago
Right now in Poland, in cities there's less legit parking spaces than cars (cities were planned by communists, who didn't assume that most householdd will have a car). People are thus forced to park in illegal places (too close to pedestrian crosing, too close to intersection, leaving too little space on the sidewalk etc.) and the authorities turn the blind eye, knowing that there are no good alternatives. When every car will be electric, the authorities will either install charing points at these illegal de-facto parking spots as well, or won't and people won't be able to charge their cars...
- Reason077 4y ago
  Although it's convenient, not every parking spot necessarily needs a charger. Driving to a fast-charging hub works too. In London, most petrol stations have installed chargers and some have even completely replaced petrol pumps with chargers [1] If you're just driving around in a city for relatively short distances every day, EVs can go weeks without charging. [1] https://goo.gl/maps/U55DztC2qHM1k67Y8 https://goo.gl/maps/U55DztC2qHM1k67Y8
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  > which didn't assume that most householdd will have a car Actually, I don't quite understand why so many people in big cities have a car. I live in Poland, have lived in two very large cities (Poznań and Warsaw) in their various regions, with my primary mode of transportation being either tram, metro or train depending on where exactly I have lived. I had used public transport to ride to school, university and work every day for many years. I have a driving license. I can afford a car. I just never felt an actual need to own it. I would certainly get one if I lived in a remote village and had to go to the nearest town anytime I wanted to do some bigger shopping, or even reach the train station. That I can fully understand. But in a city with properly functioning public transport? Many of my friends with lifestyle similar to mine own cars, and unless they have a dedicated garage their primary purpose appears to be spending time on trying to find a parking spot. Is this a consequence of cars being seen as a proxy of social status? I don't get it.
  - badpun 4y ago

izacus 4y ago

Well, this is why these mandates are made 13 years ahead of time - so infrastructure issues can be addressed and charging points built. People didn't just throw up hands and sit in a corner when petrol stations weren't every 15km of their road and when there was no electric rail anywhere.

alias_neo 4y ago
I don't disagree with you, but I also don't see the UK (England in my case) getting much of anything done in _only_ 13 years. I hope I'm wrong, and when we're all forced to have electric vehicles, that we'll be able to charge them, without having to sit at a service station for an hour while it charges. The only reasonable way I see, without affecting productivity of the nation as a whole, is to charge while we sleep, as we do with our phones usually. When I pull in to Shell now to stick Diesel in my car, I see someone sat in their EV playing on their phone while they wait for their vehicle to charge; presumably for an hour plus? this isn't what I want for our futures.
erik_seaberg 4y ago
I hope it happens, but the article isn’t reporting any mandate to have more public chargers built.

Reason077 4y ago

The UK already has a ban on new petrol & diesel car sales from 2030, so is a few years ahead of the EU. However, under the current rules, plug-in hybrids will still be permitted.

alias_neo 4y ago
I'm aware of the rule here (I'm in England); everyone I know has simply said they'll buy a new ICE car near the deadline to gain some extra longevity. I want to go all-electric, but I cant get on board with the glaring issues that are battery-tech and all-touch interior-controls; Gone are the days where you can buy a car and it'll last 20+ years with maintenance, you buy an electric, at a premium, get a crap interior and a battery that won't hold charge within 5 years, so you can't drive it, and you can't sell it.
- Reason077 4y ago
  There's plenty of variety in EVs out there now. Lots without "all touch interiors" if that's not your thing. Today's EV batteries will last for 15-20 years, which is the approximate lifetime of most combustion cars today in the UK. Some emerging battery chemistries, like the LFP cells used in some Teslas, may last considerably longer.
  - alias_neo 4y ago
    Interesting to know thanks. How much capacity are we expecting to have after say half of this time? I wonder how this will affect resale value compared to odometer values on ICE vehicles now.
  - AstralStorm 4y ago
    And it is possible to reuse old cells for grid storage etc. If only they were standardized...
lloeki 4y ago
Over here there's a ranking system (Crit'Air) for vehicles on the road, largely based off of the EURO-{x} norm. For cars: - 0: EV or hydrogen (a.k.a Zero Emission Vehicle) - 1: plug-in hybrid, LP gaz, EURO-5 or EURO-6 petrol (2011 onwards) - 2: EURO-4 petrol or hybrid (2006-2010), EURO-5 or EURO-6 diesel (2011 onwards) - 3: EURO-2 or EURO-3 petrol or hybrid (1997-2005), EURO-4 diesel (2006-2010) - 4: EURO-3 diesel (2001-2005) - 5: EURO-2 diesel (1997-2004) - unranked: anything older There are two cases where it can apply, on specific geographic Low Emission Zones: - 24/7/365 rules - air quality degradation peaks with more stringent rules for the duration of the event (depends on event magnitude, usually it's capoed at 2) My local LEZ has the following timetable: - 2020: unranked soft-forbidden (warned, not enforced) - 2022: unranked forbidden (enforced), 5 soft forbidden - 2023: 5 forbidden, 4 soft forbidden - 2024: 4+ forbidden, 3 soft forbidden - 2025: 3+ forbidden, 2 soft forbidden - 2028: 2+ forbidden Which leaves us on the road (not sales!) with a soft ban on diesel in 2024, enforced in 2025, and modern petrol+ZEVs in 2028, with full ZEV looming over for 2030. This in turn has effects on sales way before each ban because no one in their right mind would buy a car (new or second hand) that can't be used a couple of years down the road (nor resold, because no one would buy it) I mean, if one buys a diesel today it's going to be soft banned in a little over a year and fined to death (through automated license plate reading) in two years, so essentially some indirect sale ban is already in effect. Apply that reasoning in the 2025-2028 period and it would probably not be a good idea to buy a petrol car either, leaving only ZEVs (i.e EVs since there's no hydrogen powered car on the market yet) Also note that this is not about residency, merely passing through the LEZ makes one eligible for a fine, so this has rippling effects outside the LEZ.

Reason077 4y ago

> "the battery in an electric vehicle is likely to be next to useless within 5 or so years of buying it" Nope, this is an anti-EV myth. Car batteries are not like your phone battery: in most cases they will probably outlast the vehicle itself. Most car manufacturers guarantee the battery for at least 8 years, and in reality they should last a lot longer than that.

alias_neo 4y ago
> Nope, this is an anti-EV myth. Car batteries are not like your phone battery I need to do some more reading; one of the biggest things that have put me off are people (claiming) to have lost 30%+ capacity in 3-5 years. > Luxury cars are never a good investment, EV or otherwise. That's not why people buy them. This was not my point, my point was that a "decent" EV in the UK runs you the price of a luxury-car (according to UK gov brackets for what is considered a "luxury car"). A Polestar 2 for example is £50k which puts you in luxury car tax bracket, and also you lose any government incentives for buying an EV because it's a luxury EV. But is a PS2 any more luxury, other than being electric, than a specced Mondeo, Vectra, or Passat?
- Reason077 4y ago
  > "I need to do some more reading; one of the biggest things that have put me off are people (claiming) to have lost 30%+ capacity in 3-5 years." This was true for some early model EVs, like the early-2010s Nissan LEAFs. But they used different battery technology (chemistry) to todays EVs, and the battery packs lacked thermal management, leading to rapid degradation. > "But is a PS2 any more luxury, other than being electric, than a specced Mondeo, Vectra, or Passat?" I know which I'd rather have. If you were going to spend £50k on a new car today, you'd be mad if it wasn't electric.
  - alias_neo 4y ago
    > I know which I'd rather have. If you were going to spend £50k on a new car today, you'd be mad if it wasn't electric. Well that's my point; why would I spend £50k on a car ;because it's electric; when I could spend say, £35k on a very nice, probably more specced one that isn't?

badpun 4y ago

Right now in Poland, in cities there's less legit parking spaces than cars (cities were planned by communists, who didn't assume that most householdd will have a car). People are thus forced to park in illegal places (too close to pedestrian crosing, too close to intersection, leaving too little space on the sidewalk etc.) and the authorities turn the blind eye, knowing that there are no good alternatives. When every car will be electric, the authorities will either install charing points at these illegal de-facto parking spots as well, or won't and people won't be able to charge their cars...

Reason077 4y ago
Although it's convenient, not every parking spot necessarily needs a charger. Driving to a fast-charging hub works too. In London, most petrol stations have installed chargers and some have even completely replaced petrol pumps with chargers [1] If you're just driving around in a city for relatively short distances every day, EVs can go weeks without charging. [1] https://goo.gl/maps/U55DztC2qHM1k67Y8 https://goo.gl/maps/U55DztC2qHM1k67Y8
seba_dos1 4y ago
> which didn't assume that most householdd will have a car Actually, I don't quite understand why so many people in big cities have a car. I live in Poland, have lived in two very large cities (Poznań and Warsaw) in their various regions, with my primary mode of transportation being either tram, metro or train depending on where exactly I have lived. I had used public transport to ride to school, university and work every day for many years. I have a driving license. I can afford a car. I just never felt an actual need to own it. I would certainly get one if I lived in a remote village and had to go to the nearest town anytime I wanted to do some bigger shopping, or even reach the train station. That I can fully understand. But in a city with properly functioning public transport? Many of my friends with lifestyle similar to mine own cars, and unless they have a dedicated garage their primary purpose appears to be spending time on trying to find a parking spot. Is this a consequence of cars being seen as a proxy of social status? I don't get it.
- badpun 4y ago