4 ms·

> The idea behind Pets is that Configuration Management of individual hosts shouldn’t be harder than administering the system by hand. Just administer it by ha

> The idea behind Pets is that Configuration Management of individual hosts shouldn’t be harder than administering the system by hand. Just administer it by hand and back it up.

djrobstep 4y ago
Very unhealthy attitude. Why shouldn’t things be easily configurable from scratch?
- lamontcg 4y ago
  Well I have 25 years of experience with configuration management, including over 10 years having lead the development of one of the major tools in the space, and I don't waste time doing configuration management on my laptop, I just back it up. You can go ahead and do configuration management of your laptop if that gives you enjoyment, but it is entirely over the top to say that is an "unhealthy attitude".
  - djrobstep 4y ago
    That is exactly the problem. It doesn’t give me enjoyment. But why shouldn’t it?
    - kesor 4y ago
      Everyone can go and waste their time in whichever way they like. Some people like gardening, although they will never get to "sell produce" at the vegetables market. That doesn't mean gardening is bad, it just means they enjoy it and enjoy wasting their time doing gardening. Other people just go and buy vegetables at the supermarket that were grown at commercial farming. Same with doing configuration management on your laptop, if you really want to enjoy it, go for it. For most people its a complete waste of time and a useless activity compared to the alternative, which is changing the few files you need changing by hand, and backing it up to solve the "lost my work" problem.
      - djrobstep 4y ago
        I think you’re missing the point. I just said I don’t enjoy it.
      - nickserv 4y ago
        I get what you're saying and agree when it comes to setting up a machine, in that the end result will be basically the same. For gardening though I can garantee you that homegrown fruits and vegetables can be far superior to anything you can find at the supermarket, so would argue the end result is not the same. Maybe a better example would be using hand tools versus power tools -- if one takes the expense of power tools out of the equation.
pmontra 4y ago
It's about what I'm thinking to do with my Odroid running from a microSD card. dd the microsd to another one and swap it when it will inevitably fail, more sooner than later. The only problem is that I don't want to pull the card off and copy it periodically or after an apt update. I'm storing configs in git but restoring them is a tedious task. Maybe Pets can help me. Or rsnapshot as on my laptop.
xylon 4y ago
but then you dont have visibility of what changes you have made. having config management improves visibility of how something is configured
- lamontcg 4y ago
  I don't think I've done anything to my laptop that I can't google in a minute or two at the most. I don't really need that visibility. If I need to know something very specific, I could always drop it into a note to keep. The visibility of the changes aren't a virtue in themselves, it is only when you do something with them that they become useful. Spending hours documenting my build system for my pet laptop to save myself 60 seconds a few times a year isn't a good payoff for me. If the payoff is that you also learn configuration management along the way, then that's fine. (I also don't quite understand how you're testing and validating your build system for your laptop without periodically wiping it and reprovisioning it -- and once you start considering things like that I definitely don't have enough time for all that)
- fab23 4y ago
  Each system has a text file where I note down the steps I did to install and configure something new or also when doing major changes. Also the steps for less often routine jobs (like major OS updates) get entries. On one hand it is kind of a log book what changed on the systems and also is a wonderful sources for when you need to do it the next time.
JamesSwift 4y ago
If people were good about doing it by hand and keeping track of what was done to the box, and ensuring that changes only happen via the documented pipeline, then we wouldn't have a cottage industry of configuration management tools. Maybe you are an outlier and are able to keep good notes, but I think its obvious that the general population is not diligent enough.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  > changes only happen via the documented pipeline Why do you have a "documented pipeline" for your laptop? And I never bother keeping notes, I just back it up so that the whole thing is recoverable.
  - JamesSwift 4y ago
    Well I use nix so its tracked in git and I can mostly rely on data-only backups then. It makes it so much easier to have multiple laptops (e.g. I have a "completely personal" and "contract work" laptop which have a lot of overlap but are not the same).
    - lamontcg 4y ago
      > It makes it so much easier to have multiple laptops You're getting away from having a pet then. And once you consider that you might have a third laptop for something work related and be able to duplicate the base configuration then you no longer have pets and you just need configuration management. That isn't even the common use case of most IT professionals, much less most laptop users.

> The idea behind Pets is that Configuration Management of individual hosts shouldn’t be harder than administering the system by hand. Just administer it by hand and back it up.

djrobstep 4y ago

Very unhealthy attitude. Why shouldn’t things be easily configurable from scratch?

lamontcg 4y ago
Well I have 25 years of experience with configuration management, including over 10 years having lead the development of one of the major tools in the space, and I don't waste time doing configuration management on my laptop, I just back it up. You can go ahead and do configuration management of your laptop if that gives you enjoyment, but it is entirely over the top to say that is an "unhealthy attitude".
- djrobstep 4y ago
  That is exactly the problem. It doesn’t give me enjoyment. But why shouldn’t it?
  - kesor 4y ago
    Everyone can go and waste their time in whichever way they like. Some people like gardening, although they will never get to "sell produce" at the vegetables market. That doesn't mean gardening is bad, it just means they enjoy it and enjoy wasting their time doing gardening. Other people just go and buy vegetables at the supermarket that were grown at commercial farming. Same with doing configuration management on your laptop, if you really want to enjoy it, go for it. For most people its a complete waste of time and a useless activity compared to the alternative, which is changing the few files you need changing by hand, and backing it up to solve the "lost my work" problem.
    - djrobstep 4y ago
      I think you’re missing the point. I just said I don’t enjoy it.
    - nickserv 4y ago
      I get what you're saying and agree when it comes to setting up a machine, in that the end result will be basically the same. For gardening though I can garantee you that homegrown fruits and vegetables can be far superior to anything you can find at the supermarket, so would argue the end result is not the same. Maybe a better example would be using hand tools versus power tools -- if one takes the expense of power tools out of the equation.

pmontra 4y ago

It's about what I'm thinking to do with my Odroid running from a microSD card. dd the microsd to another one and swap it when it will inevitably fail, more sooner than later. The only problem is that I don't want to pull the card off and copy it periodically or after an apt update. I'm storing configs in git but restoring them is a tedious task. Maybe Pets can help me. Or rsnapshot as on my laptop.

xylon 4y ago

but then you dont have visibility of what changes you have made. having config management improves visibility of how something is configured

lamontcg 4y ago
I don't think I've done anything to my laptop that I can't google in a minute or two at the most. I don't really need that visibility. If I need to know something very specific, I could always drop it into a note to keep. The visibility of the changes aren't a virtue in themselves, it is only when you do something with them that they become useful. Spending hours documenting my build system for my pet laptop to save myself 60 seconds a few times a year isn't a good payoff for me. If the payoff is that you also learn configuration management along the way, then that's fine. (I also don't quite understand how you're testing and validating your build system for your laptop without periodically wiping it and reprovisioning it -- and once you start considering things like that I definitely don't have enough time for all that)
fab23 4y ago
Each system has a text file where I note down the steps I did to install and configure something new or also when doing major changes. Also the steps for less often routine jobs (like major OS updates) get entries. On one hand it is kind of a log book what changed on the systems and also is a wonderful sources for when you need to do it the next time.

JamesSwift 4y ago

If people were good about doing it by hand and keeping track of what was done to the box, and ensuring that changes only happen via the documented pipeline, then we wouldn't have a cottage industry of configuration management tools. Maybe you are an outlier and are able to keep good notes, but I think its obvious that the general population is not diligent enough.

lamontcg 4y ago
> changes only happen via the documented pipeline Why do you have a "documented pipeline" for your laptop? And I never bother keeping notes, I just back it up so that the whole thing is recoverable.
- JamesSwift 4y ago
  Well I use nix so its tracked in git and I can mostly rely on data-only backups then. It makes it so much easier to have multiple laptops (e.g. I have a "completely personal" and "contract work" laptop which have a lot of overlap but are not the same).
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    > It makes it so much easier to have multiple laptops You're getting away from having a pet then. And once you consider that you might have a third laptop for something work related and be able to duplicate the base configuration then you no longer have pets and you just need configuration management. That isn't even the common use case of most IT professionals, much less most laptop users.