3 ms·

Wait what? We have frameworks for frameworks now? What?? How did we get there :(

savanaly 4y ago
I think React is better described as a library than a framework. Frameworks for libraries sounds entirely reasonable to me.
- davnicwil 4y ago
  not only reasonable but an inevitable conclusion I'd argue. I've been waiting for the current crop of React frameworks (of which Remix is my current favourite but they all bring cool thing to the table) to appear since the early days of using it - it was only a matter of time. First the library, then the patterns, then the ecosystem of add ons implementing those patterns, then the projects that scaffold sensible sets of those together for you along with a build setup etc, and finally... the all in one framework that does it all out the box.
  - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
    > the all in one framework that does it all out the box Wouldn't Angular and Vue count as cohesive "batteries included" frameworks? Having to work on your own build setup feels very inane.
    - ddyevf635372 4y ago
      +1 for Ember.js as well :)
- super256 4y ago
  React does indeed describe itself as a library.
  - eurasiantiger 4y ago
    It is closer to Twig than Symfony.
lillecarl 4y ago
Have a library never depended on another or just wrapped it up nicer with helpers and stuff? You don't write ASM or C a lot anymore either right? Many of these examples can make it easier to do things right, increasing performance by doing less things (better defaults etc) so I don't think something like this should be frowned upon.
didip 4y ago
Everyone told me that Javascript ecosystem is maturing and slowing down. Everyone told me to just consider either React or Vue. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
- lghh 4y ago
  It seems that using Remix would indeed be just using React + server stuff.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  For 7-8 years now you've been able to use just React, even not learning functional components. You don't need to add Next, Remix, or learn Vue, and your career would be safe for the next decade with how many React codebases there are.
tr1ll10nb1ll 4y ago
There's nothing wrong about that. Your existing options remain and WILL remain. The new options just feel more productive (but that's subjective too). If you prefer writing separate backend code: - You can use any backend with Next.js/Remix if you want to. (https://remix.run/docs/en/v1/guides/bff https://remix.run/docs/en/v1/guides/bff) - You don't have to use either of those for your front-end in the first place. You can just use React with Vite. Thinking about SSR/SSG? You can use the Vite SSR plugin (does serverless SSR really well too) If you prefer having your server and client coupled and want to go in with the new options (using React as your library): - Use Next.js/Remix for everything. You can then choose parts of your architecture individually (for instance Prisma as ORM, TRPC/Blitz's RPC model as your API model (or Remix's action-loader pattern), etc.) These are just two options and probably all you'll need to know to be productive unless you WANT to know more in which case you'll inevitably do your own research.
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
Java has the same in the form of the Spring framework that, afaik, forces you to write your own entry point controller and take care of providing the servlet container yourself. There is the Spring Boot framework which sets all of this up for you in about 10 lines of code. People also made fun of this "framework for a framework" paradigm. But, if it works, so be it.
solardev 4y ago
React without a framework only gives you a basic UI composition layer and some simple state management and inheritance tools. With a proper framework it becomes vastly better. It's probably a philosophical thing too. You can make your own Frankenstein site with a bunch of a separate libs or you can go with an elegantly configured and single vendor supported bolts included framework.
- rickette 4y ago
  Meanwhile React got more love from HN while frameworks like Angular have been offering this (a batteries included complete frontend framework) for many years
  - solardev 4y ago
    Yeah Angular was great too. It was so much cleaner than early React. These days though it's not really a contender anymore, sadly... the ecosystem has moved on. Sigh.

I think React is better described as a library than a framework. Frameworks for libraries sounds entirely reasonable to me.

davnicwil 4y ago
not only reasonable but an inevitable conclusion I'd argue. I've been waiting for the current crop of React frameworks (of which Remix is my current favourite but they all bring cool thing to the table) to appear since the early days of using it - it was only a matter of time. First the library, then the patterns, then the ecosystem of add ons implementing those patterns, then the projects that scaffold sensible sets of those together for you along with a build setup etc, and finally... the all in one framework that does it all out the box.
- Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  > the all in one framework that does it all out the box Wouldn't Angular and Vue count as cohesive "batteries included" frameworks? Having to work on your own build setup feels very inane.
  - ddyevf635372 4y ago
    +1 for Ember.js as well :)
super256 4y ago
React does indeed describe itself as a library.
- eurasiantiger 4y ago
  It is closer to Twig than Symfony.

lillecarl 4y ago

Have a library never depended on another or just wrapped it up nicer with helpers and stuff? You don't write ASM or C a lot anymore either right? Many of these examples can make it easier to do things right, increasing performance by doing less things (better defaults etc) so I don't think something like this should be frowned upon.

didip 4y ago

Everyone told me that Javascript ecosystem is maturing and slowing down. Everyone told me to just consider either React or Vue. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

lghh 4y ago
It seems that using Remix would indeed be just using React + server stuff.
reducesuffering 4y ago
For 7-8 years now you've been able to use just React, even not learning functional components. You don't need to add Next, Remix, or learn Vue, and your career would be safe for the next decade with how many React codebases there are.

tr1ll10nb1ll 4y ago

There's nothing wrong about that. Your existing options remain and WILL remain. The new options just feel more productive (but that's subjective too). If you prefer writing separate backend code: - You can use any backend with Next.js/Remix if you want to. (https://remix.run/docs/en/v1/guides/bff https://remix.run/docs/en/v1/guides/bff) - You don't have to use either of those for your front-end in the first place. You can just use React with Vite. Thinking about SSR/SSG? You can use the Vite SSR plugin (does serverless SSR really well too) If you prefer having your server and client coupled and want to go in with the new options (using React as your library): - Use Next.js/Remix for everything. You can then choose parts of your architecture individually (for instance Prisma as ORM, TRPC/Blitz's RPC model as your API model (or Remix's action-loader pattern), etc.) These are just two options and probably all you'll need to know to be productive unless you WANT to know more in which case you'll inevitably do your own research.

Traubenfuchs 4y ago

Java has the same in the form of the Spring framework that, afaik, forces you to write your own entry point controller and take care of providing the servlet container yourself. There is the Spring Boot framework which sets all of this up for you in about 10 lines of code. People also made fun of this "framework for a framework" paradigm. But, if it works, so be it.

solardev 4y ago

React without a framework only gives you a basic UI composition layer and some simple state management and inheritance tools. With a proper framework it becomes vastly better. It's probably a philosophical thing too. You can make your own Frankenstein site with a bunch of a separate libs or you can go with an elegantly configured and single vendor supported bolts included framework.

rickette 4y ago
Meanwhile React got more love from HN while frameworks like Angular have been offering this (a batteries included complete frontend framework) for many years
- solardev 4y ago
  Yeah Angular was great too. It was so much cleaner than early React. These days though it's not really a contender anymore, sadly... the ecosystem has moved on. Sigh.