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It's a good question. I wish I had a favorite programming language, though. I think if you spend more than ten years in the business and you still are in love w

by neilk 15y ago

It's a good question. I wish I had a favorite programming language, though. I think if you spend more than ten years in the business and you still are in love with a particular tool, you probably haven't really done anything big, or you haven't ever looked around to see how other people do things. JavaScript is probably the language I hate the least. And I'd make some of the CoffeeScript syntax standard, and maybe bring in some concepts to keep spaghetti callbacks under control.

fogus 15y ago
That's an interesting generalization there. In my time I've encountered many kinds of programmers. Some could create amazing things despite their tool or language. Likewise, there were many who created amazing things with the help of their favorite tools or langauges. It's not wrong to have a favorite tool. It's natural. However, it might not be a great idea to think solely in terms of the tool; limitations and all. This is the spirit of the question.
- neilk 15y ago
  Perhaps I am trying to justify my bitterness. :) Seriously, it's been an issue when I've been trying to collaborate with others on a side project. We had the question of what language to start with. Some of the interested contributors were Python consultants and insisted that not only was Python the best language, but that Python was the best community, and Python people were the best and most virtuous people. (It is a kind of activist do-gooder project, which is why that person thought this was relevant.) This sort of opinion seems asinine to me now, and it hurts especially because I used to be one of those guys around 1998-2000 or so -- except, for Perl. The question of what language to start with kind of paralyzes me now, because when I consider what we'll want a few months in, I see this field of leg-hold traps we're going to step in. In all directions. I almost wish I had less experience and foresight (or more courage, take your pick).
  - lukeschlather 15y ago
    I do think that Python is the best language, but I've worked with some truly terrible languages, so I'm not going to spend any time trying to convince someone that we should use it on a program. All I ask from a programming language is a type system, arrays, functions, and scoping. Some sort of notion of class/class methods is nice, as is a few hash/set-type containers to supplement the default array container. Having done "high-level" programming in languages that had none of these features, I'm pretty content with whatever is handed to me to work with.
rayiner 15y ago
> I think if you spend more than ten years in the business and you still are in love with a particular tool, you probably haven't really done anything big, or you haven't ever looked around to see how other people do things. Overgeneralization. It's like nice looking cars. Just because you love a classic Shelby Mustang doesn't mean you can't acknowledge there are other good tools out there. After years of programming professionally in C++ and occasionally Python, there is still something about the design of Common Lisp that I love. It's like using a Mac--the attention to detail evidences an obvious good taste that I rarely see in other languages or their libraries.
jashkenas 15y ago
> And I'd make some of the CoffeeScript syntax standard, > and maybe bring in some concepts to keep spaghetti > callbacks under control. You may be interested in keeping an eye on this branch: https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/issues/1710 https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/issues/1710
- neilk 15y ago
  Thanks! My friend Alex Graveley also has a totally different way of doing this, and a lot more, that uses the standard but not often implemented 'yield' keyword to create an Erlang-style process model, hence "Er.js": http://beatniksoftware.com/erjs/ http://beatniksoftware.com/erjs/ But you might want both TameJS and Er.js for different applications.

by neilk 15y ago

fogus 15y ago

That's an interesting generalization there. In my time I've encountered many kinds of programmers. Some could create amazing things despite their tool or language. Likewise, there were many who created amazing things with the help of their favorite tools or langauges. It's not wrong to have a favorite tool. It's natural. However, it might not be a great idea to think solely in terms of the tool; limitations and all. This is the spirit of the question.

neilk 15y ago
Perhaps I am trying to justify my bitterness. :) Seriously, it's been an issue when I've been trying to collaborate with others on a side project. We had the question of what language to start with. Some of the interested contributors were Python consultants and insisted that not only was Python the best language, but that Python was the best community, and Python people were the best and most virtuous people. (It is a kind of activist do-gooder project, which is why that person thought this was relevant.) This sort of opinion seems asinine to me now, and it hurts especially because I used to be one of those guys around 1998-2000 or so -- except, for Perl. The question of what language to start with kind of paralyzes me now, because when I consider what we'll want a few months in, I see this field of leg-hold traps we're going to step in. In all directions. I almost wish I had less experience and foresight (or more courage, take your pick).
- lukeschlather 15y ago
  I do think that Python is the best language, but I've worked with some truly terrible languages, so I'm not going to spend any time trying to convince someone that we should use it on a program. All I ask from a programming language is a type system, arrays, functions, and scoping. Some sort of notion of class/class methods is nice, as is a few hash/set-type containers to supplement the default array container. Having done "high-level" programming in languages that had none of these features, I'm pretty content with whatever is handed to me to work with.

rayiner 15y ago

> I think if you spend more than ten years in the business and you still are in love with a particular tool, you probably haven't really done anything big, or you haven't ever looked around to see how other people do things. Overgeneralization. It's like nice looking cars. Just because you love a classic Shelby Mustang doesn't mean you can't acknowledge there are other good tools out there. After years of programming professionally in C++ and occasionally Python, there is still something about the design of Common Lisp that I love. It's like using a Mac--the attention to detail evidences an obvious good taste that I rarely see in other languages or their libraries.

jashkenas 15y ago

> And I'd make some of the CoffeeScript syntax standard, > and maybe bring in some concepts to keep spaghetti > callbacks under control. You may be interested in keeping an eye on this branch: https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/issues/1710 https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/issues/1710

neilk 15y ago
Thanks! My friend Alex Graveley also has a totally different way of doing this, and a lot more, that uses the standard but not often implemented 'yield' keyword to create an Erlang-style process model, hence "Er.js": http://beatniksoftware.com/erjs/ http://beatniksoftware.com/erjs/ But you might want both TameJS and Er.js for different applications.