> I don't think so, or we disagree on the meaning of words. Well, when there's four people in the conversation, that happens. u/josephg's complaint at the top

> I don't think so, or we disagree on the meaning of words. Well, when there's four people in the conversation, that happens. u/josephg's complaint at the top of this thread is that people use TCP but still have to add framing in their application protocols. u/josephg said something to the effect of how few protocols do no framing and mentioned HTTP/1, but even HTTP/1.1 w/ chunked transfer encoding adds framing, and even HTTP/1.0 w/ definite content-length also has framing (CRLFs) for the request headers themselves, and effectively frames bodies with CRLF at the start and EOF at the end. Chunks are definitely not datagrams, just as TLS records aren't either, and just as TCP segments aren't either. But they have framing, which u/josephg complained about. Framing of some sort is unavoidable. My point, besides the inevitability of application-layer framing, is that a datagram- or message-oriented transport won't make things trivial for apps anymore than TCP did.