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No, not at all: for example, you can be a non-profit and still contribute to GDP, since you're still creating economic activity. Heck, even what the government

No, not at all: for example, you can be a non-profit and still contribute to GDP, since you're still creating economic activity. Heck, even what the government does contributes to GDP, and that's not making money for anyone.

BobbyJo 4y ago
I think this is exactly what parent meant. "How much is made" doesn't strictly mean "profit" in terms of a for-profit institution. The net output of a non-profit is directed somewhere, either internal or external to the entity, and that can loosely be considered "making money", or at least in the sense I believe parent meant.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  GDP is denominated in dollars, so this seems to be a somewhat vacuous position - yes, that's how we measure economic activity, but it doesn't have to involve money changing hands. Productivity is based on the value of the work done, not any profitability assessment. The original post which set off this chain asserted it was about not how much workers get done but how much money is made off of what workers get done ... which is unambiguously wrong.
  - BobbyJo 4y ago
    > The original post which set off this chain asserted it was about not how much workers get done but how much money is made off of what workers get done... which is unambiguously wrong I don't believe the difference is consequential here, since the originating point still holds even using your definition. I wouldn't say it's "wrong" so much as imprecise, as the way I interpreted the statement would encompass your more detailed description. It's like when I ask people "how much money" they make, I intend them to include non-cash compensation in the number (in dollar equivalent), and pretty much all do without additional prompting.
    - stormbrew 4y ago
      Yes. My point was that when people read these articles they think of a much more casual definition of productivity that has more to do with a sense of "getting things done," but the word is jargon for something that has little to do with that. I was playing loose with the jargon meaning for sure, but I'm pulling out to what articles in the Washington Post or other economics-focused media really care about: the impact to corporate bottom line.
mcguire 4y ago
So, how much money changes hands off of how much workers work?
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  If this is a good faith question, you can answer it by reference to any good economics text; or even, you know, Wikipedia. But it feels like maybe it's not. Here's another example: you volunteer at a homeless shelter, where you serve food on a soup kitchen line. You have contributed to the GDP of the United States. By all means, feel free to fit this into your preferred framework.
  - mcguire 4y ago
    What I'm doing is putting how you describe productivity into the form from the original comment. And I'll stand by that last version: How much money changes hands off of how much workers work? The input to labor productivity is how many hours are worked, correct? And no one is measuring output in terms of the number of bowls of soup produced by homeless shelters; those are converted to dollars based on a current index price. So you have economic activity, how much money changes hands, compared to labor inputs, how much workers work. Simple?
    - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
      Your fundamental confusion is that you keep equating economic activity with "money changing hands", which is wrong.
      - mcguire 4y ago
        Ok, here's a question for you: back in ancient days, most women worked at home. Is taking care of your own children and your own household an economic activity as would count in GDP, for example? Is someone making a bowl of soup for their spouse different from someone making a bowl of soup at a homeless shelter? "GDP measures the market value of the goods and services a nation produces. Unpaid work that people do for themselves and their families isn't traded in the marketplace, so there are no transactions to track. ... The lack of reliable data influenced the decision to leave household production out of GDP in the internationally accepted guidelines for national accounting." (https://www.bea.gov/help/faq/1297 https://www.bea.gov/help/faq/1297) "Economic activity" that does not equate to "money changing hands" in some form, isn't an "economic activity" that counts for GDP or productivity, right?

BobbyJo 4y ago

I think this is exactly what parent meant. "How much is made" doesn't strictly mean "profit" in terms of a for-profit institution. The net output of a non-profit is directed somewhere, either internal or external to the entity, and that can loosely be considered "making money", or at least in the sense I believe parent meant.

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
GDP is denominated in dollars, so this seems to be a somewhat vacuous position - yes, that's how we measure economic activity, but it doesn't have to involve money changing hands. Productivity is based on the value of the work done, not any profitability assessment. The original post which set off this chain asserted it was about not how much workers get done but how much money is made off of what workers get done ... which is unambiguously wrong.
- BobbyJo 4y ago
  > The original post which set off this chain asserted it was about not how much workers get done but how much money is made off of what workers get done... which is unambiguously wrong I don't believe the difference is consequential here, since the originating point still holds even using your definition. I wouldn't say it's "wrong" so much as imprecise, as the way I interpreted the statement would encompass your more detailed description. It's like when I ask people "how much money" they make, I intend them to include non-cash compensation in the number (in dollar equivalent), and pretty much all do without additional prompting.
  - stormbrew 4y ago
    Yes. My point was that when people read these articles they think of a much more casual definition of productivity that has more to do with a sense of "getting things done," but the word is jargon for something that has little to do with that. I was playing loose with the jargon meaning for sure, but I'm pulling out to what articles in the Washington Post or other economics-focused media really care about: the impact to corporate bottom line.

mcguire 4y ago

So, how much money changes hands off of how much workers work?

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
If this is a good faith question, you can answer it by reference to any good economics text; or even, you know, Wikipedia. But it feels like maybe it's not. Here's another example: you volunteer at a homeless shelter, where you serve food on a soup kitchen line. You have contributed to the GDP of the United States. By all means, feel free to fit this into your preferred framework.
- mcguire 4y ago
  What I'm doing is putting how you describe productivity into the form from the original comment. And I'll stand by that last version: How much money changes hands off of how much workers work? The input to labor productivity is how many hours are worked, correct? And no one is measuring output in terms of the number of bowls of soup produced by homeless shelters; those are converted to dollars based on a current index price. So you have economic activity, how much money changes hands, compared to labor inputs, how much workers work. Simple?
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    Your fundamental confusion is that you keep equating economic activity with "money changing hands", which is wrong.
    - mcguire 4y ago
      Ok, here's a question for you: back in ancient days, most women worked at home. Is taking care of your own children and your own household an economic activity as would count in GDP, for example? Is someone making a bowl of soup for their spouse different from someone making a bowl of soup at a homeless shelter? "GDP measures the market value of the goods and services a nation produces. Unpaid work that people do for themselves and their families isn't traded in the marketplace, so there are no transactions to track. ... The lack of reliable data influenced the decision to leave household production out of GDP in the internationally accepted guidelines for national accounting." (https://www.bea.gov/help/faq/1297 https://www.bea.gov/help/faq/1297) "Economic activity" that does not equate to "money changing hands" in some form, isn't an "economic activity" that counts for GDP or productivity, right?