5 ms·

While I am supportive of this, I expect a lot (majority?) of listings with ranges like "$40k-200k based on experience". (Or the example from the article, "$17-5

by gsk22 4y ago

While I am supportive of this, I expect a lot (majority?) of listings with ranges like "$40k-200k based on experience". (Or the example from the article, "$17-50/hr")

willio58 4y ago
This is still a good thing because you know the true limit. So instead of thinking "maybe I can get 60k for this job", you can think "maybe I can get 120k for this job".
CompleteWalker 4y ago
NYC's Fact sheet about the new law notes that minimum and maximum stated salaries must be in "good faith". Not a lawyer, but maybe this is space for class action lawsuits or something... Salary Transparency Fact Sheet: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/Salary-Transparency-Factsheet.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/...
- ender341341 4y ago
  Yeah, in the cases where they're like "looking for someone anywhere between college hire & sr engineer inclusive" it'd be nice if it was breaking it out by level/pay band, then people could have a much better idea if it was worth their time
- deltree7 4y ago
  A knowledge worker's productivity can easily (and provably ) range from -10x to +1000x. So, it's much easier to prove in the court of law that the ranges are justified. Dude who created the React Framework is always 100x valuable to the company than an average Javascript developer. A couple of brilliant dudes is all that is required for a company to be a mere $100 Million company vs $1 Billion company. It's ridiculous to pay the same $100,000 for each of them
  - jedberg 4y ago
    The dude who created the react framework (who I happen to know) already knows his worth, and is not getting jobs through public listings. This law isn't for him. Also he is getting higher level jobs. And that's true even further down the line -- if your experience can mean $200K more per year, then those should be two different job listings. One senior and one junior.
    - Dracophoenix 4y ago
      This law applies to anyone in New York with no stated exceptions for outliers. If he ever works for a company/satellite office there, whether remote or on-site, he's as much a member of the job market as anyone else. Any company interested in hiring him would obviously provide a massive number at the higher range.
      - jedberg 4y ago
        But they would never make a job listing for the job. They would just reach out to him and ask for an interview. Actually they would reach out and ask to have a discussion about what he wants to do next, and it would be a multi-month effort of convincing him to even apply, including informal meet and greets with the team. There would never be an open req.
        joshuamorton 4y ago
        And when hired he would be hire into the role that has the salary range he requires and possibly some larger than average performance based compensation scheme, which is totally legal, but also possibly not because at the point that you're hired as a principal or distinguished eng the default compensation is still really high.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    Can you prove it? I don't think I've ever met an engineer who is, by themselves, 1000x more productive than even the least productive person I've ever worked with.
highwaylights 4y ago
“Expect $40k” Skip to next. Job done.
jakub_g 4y ago
Something like this is an extreme range (clearly no one in engineering would be at 40k) and would make the employer look quite bad IMO. FWIW GitHub https://github.com/about/careers https://github.com/about/careers has eng salaries for US positions be like "min 110 max 250" and while the range is high, it's still more useful than no information at all IMO. I wonder though how this would look like for non-tech jobs.
throwaway292939 4y ago
It's a red flag for me when the range from the company is too broad. It sounds like they don't know what they want. If they truly need people of different levels of experience, it would make more sense for them to write separate job descriptions that accurately describe the responsibilities of the role.
- gsk22 4y ago
  > It sounds like they don't know what they want. In my experience, including at companies I've worked at, that's the case more often than not. Every department is perpetually short of employees, so the hope is to hire anyone halfway competent and figure out their real responsibilities later.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    This here is the real secret.
- parkingrift 4y ago
  >If they truly need people of different levels of experience, it would make more sense for them to write separate job descriptions that accurately describe the responsibilities of the role. They would do that if not for laws like this. Instead the JD is a legal checkbox, and you get the actual responsibilities after you apply.
pastor_bob 4y ago
I've seen salaries being rolled out and I have found this not to be the case. In reality, most places have a salary in mind for a position, and most hr teams are not going to post '[that salary] - 100k more' and they're probably not going to post a lower end that's less than what they have in mind.
time_to_smile 4y ago
I'm happy with an upper bound. I've been able to quickly disqualify a lot of recruiter messages simply by asking for comp ranges and discovering that max possible is less than my base, let alone RSUs and bonus. Even with a larger range like you proposed it's easy to ask yourself where you are in that distribution. Even if your current comp is 190, a range 40-200 means it's only worth the time to interview if you really like the company and think the role might be a great fit. If you're making 60k currently then there's a reasonable chance you can get a high enough of a raise to make the move make sense.

by gsk22 4y ago

While I am supportive of this, I expect a lot (majority?) of listings with ranges like "$40k-200k based on experience". (Or the example from the article, "$17-50/hr")

willio58 4y ago

This is still a good thing because you know the true limit. So instead of thinking "maybe I can get 60k for this job", you can think "maybe I can get 120k for this job".

CompleteWalker 4y ago

NYC's Fact sheet about the new law notes that minimum and maximum stated salaries must be in "good faith". Not a lawyer, but maybe this is space for class action lawsuits or something... Salary Transparency Fact Sheet: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/Salary-Transparency-Factsheet.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/...

ender341341 4y ago
Yeah, in the cases where they're like "looking for someone anywhere between college hire & sr engineer inclusive" it'd be nice if it was breaking it out by level/pay band, then people could have a much better idea if it was worth their time
deltree7 4y ago
A knowledge worker's productivity can easily (and provably ) range from -10x to +1000x. So, it's much easier to prove in the court of law that the ranges are justified. Dude who created the React Framework is always 100x valuable to the company than an average Javascript developer. A couple of brilliant dudes is all that is required for a company to be a mere $100 Million company vs $1 Billion company. It's ridiculous to pay the same $100,000 for each of them
- jedberg 4y ago
  The dude who created the react framework (who I happen to know) already knows his worth, and is not getting jobs through public listings. This law isn't for him. Also he is getting higher level jobs. And that's true even further down the line -- if your experience can mean $200K more per year, then those should be two different job listings. One senior and one junior.
  - Dracophoenix 4y ago
    This law applies to anyone in New York with no stated exceptions for outliers. If he ever works for a company/satellite office there, whether remote or on-site, he's as much a member of the job market as anyone else. Any company interested in hiring him would obviously provide a massive number at the higher range.
    - jedberg 4y ago
      But they would never make a job listing for the job. They would just reach out to him and ask for an interview. Actually they would reach out and ask to have a discussion about what he wants to do next, and it would be a multi-month effort of convincing him to even apply, including informal meet and greets with the team. There would never be an open req.
      - joshuamorton 4y ago
        And when hired he would be hire into the role that has the salary range he requires and possibly some larger than average performance based compensation scheme, which is totally legal, but also possibly not because at the point that you're hired as a principal or distinguished eng the default compensation is still really high.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  Can you prove it? I don't think I've ever met an engineer who is, by themselves, 1000x more productive than even the least productive person I've ever worked with.

highwaylights 4y ago

“Expect $40k” Skip to next. Job done.

jakub_g 4y ago

Something like this is an extreme range (clearly no one in engineering would be at 40k) and would make the employer look quite bad IMO. FWIW GitHub https://github.com/about/careers https://github.com/about/careers has eng salaries for US positions be like "min 110 max 250" and while the range is high, it's still more useful than no information at all IMO. I wonder though how this would look like for non-tech jobs.

throwaway292939 4y ago

It's a red flag for me when the range from the company is too broad. It sounds like they don't know what they want. If they truly need people of different levels of experience, it would make more sense for them to write separate job descriptions that accurately describe the responsibilities of the role.

gsk22 4y ago
> It sounds like they don't know what they want. In my experience, including at companies I've worked at, that's the case more often than not. Every department is perpetually short of employees, so the hope is to hire anyone halfway competent and figure out their real responsibilities later.
- bombcar 4y ago
  This here is the real secret.
parkingrift 4y ago
>If they truly need people of different levels of experience, it would make more sense for them to write separate job descriptions that accurately describe the responsibilities of the role. They would do that if not for laws like this. Instead the JD is a legal checkbox, and you get the actual responsibilities after you apply.

pastor_bob 4y ago

I've seen salaries being rolled out and I have found this not to be the case. In reality, most places have a salary in mind for a position, and most hr teams are not going to post '[that salary] - 100k more' and they're probably not going to post a lower end that's less than what they have in mind.

time_to_smile 4y ago

I'm happy with an upper bound. I've been able to quickly disqualify a lot of recruiter messages simply by asking for comp ranges and discovering that max possible is less than my base, let alone RSUs and bonus. Even with a larger range like you proposed it's easy to ask yourself where you are in that distribution. Even if your current comp is 190, a range 40-200 means it's only worth the time to interview if you really like the company and think the role might be a great fit. If you're making 60k currently then there's a reasonable chance you can get a high enough of a raise to make the move make sense.