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> [Scooters] are substantially less safe than even bicycles (Emphasis mine) Bicycles aren't unsafe in themselves, see lots of cities where cycling is a very co

> [Scooters] are substantially less safe than even bicycles (Emphasis mine) Bicycles aren't unsafe in themselves, see lots of cities where cycling is a very common and safe mode of transportation. Scooters on the other hand are indeed a lot less safe due to their small wheels, short wheelbase and awkward stance of the rider. That said, it's the urban planning that makes cycling unsafe in many places, not the device itself.

kqr 4y ago
Ordinary upright/city bicycles have significant controllability problems at high (>50 km/h) speeds compared to e.g. cars. I think that's where "even bicycles" comes from, in this context. (Why am I using >50 km/h as the benchmark? Because that's the sort of speeds you easily end up at if you try to keep up with cars downhill.) ---- Edit: it seems that people are missing critical words in my comment: - "Ordinary upright/city bike" means "not road/touring/etc bikes". They are constructed differently and comfortably do well over 50 km/h. - "Downhill" means significant gravity assistance for a few seconds up to a minute, and not "sustained under pedaling power alone". I'd be impressed if you regularly did 50 km/h on the flats with one of those bicycles.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  > Ordinary upright/city bicycles have significant controllability problems at high (>50 km/h) speeds compared to e.g. cars. I think that's where "even bicycles" comes from, in this context. Who on earth is using ordinary city bikes at 50km/h near cars? Even class II e-bikes are limited to 20mph/32kph. Class III are limited to 28mph/45kph but are forbidden from bike paths. [edit] 50kph under your own power is the average speed at the Tour de France.
  - grogenaut 4y ago
    I used to commute from Bellevue WA to Kirkland WA, the mainly way across the freeway was either to go down this road over the freeway that didn't used to have sidewalks https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6393386,-122.2032674,17.25z https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6393386,-122.2032674,17.25z or go 2 miles out of the way and up a huge hill. The right lane is where people wanted to go to get on the freeway at the time. It was easiest to just get in the left lane and do 40mph down the hill which is what cars did speed wise. People gave me plenty of berth if I was moving at car speeds. If I went slow on the right I got tailgated. My bike was quite stable at 40mph. No I wouldn't go that fast on a bike path, this was only due to the power of gravity.
  - taeric 4y ago
    As I mentioned in sibling response, it is somewhat easy to get those speeds in any hilly place. Keeping them for extended times is, of course, out of the question. And my return commute has me well below that. Again for obvious reasons. :D Now, I fully agree with the spirit of your post. Even the spots I'm talking about are short bursts.
- Ylpertnodi 4y ago
  >Because that's the sort of speeds you easily end up at if you try to keep up with cars downhill Not many people will do >50kmh even downhill (even with disk brakes), and on the few occasions I've done so, I absolutely would not say there are "significant controllability problems". In fact, quite the opposite. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN6Z8UgVOuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN6Z8UgVOuw Nb - these were shot in the days before the 'supertuck' (sitting on the crossbar) was banned.
  - taeric 4y ago
    I easily hit 35-40 mph on every commute to work with my bicycle on one of the downhills. Just 30mph is trivial to get to on any of the downhills with my bike, and is just slightly faster than many of the ebikes go with very little effort.
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  To be fair, if you're holding a professional cycling race, you should probably close off the roads to other traffic.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
A helmet has probably saved my life several times when riding my bike. In all cases, it was only me, my bike, and my idiocy involved, no third parties. All it takes is a little bit of loose gravel where you don't expect it, or a wet stone in the path that's a bit slippier than expected. Bicycles with helmets are fairly safe. Without helmets? No way, I'm not riding without a helmet. But scooters without helmets are much worse, I wouldn't dare go much more than 10mph on a scooter without a helmet.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  Don't forget wet leaves. I was riding my bike well after it had rained, and most of the path was dry, but there was a shady spot under a tree that still was wet and I basically lost all traction on it. Only time I ever "used" my helmet.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Or half buried campfire rings (aka a repurposed truck wheel rim) hidden by the grass on the side of a hill.. I think I must have done about two flips in the air after hitting that. At least in that case I don't think I hit my head hard, I landed in the same grass which cushioned my landing, but if there had been something else hidden in the grass I might have lost more than just a bicycle wheel.
- Kim_Bruning 4y ago
  Hmm, What kind of bike at what kind of speed on what kind of surface? It's entirely possible to ride a bike in a way that actually doesn't require a helmet. It's VERY boring :-P , but nevertheless practical and doable.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Probably about 15 to 20 mph. Once on a country road going down a hill in a bend; I slipped on loose gravel and had to replace my helmet. The second time, about the same speed but on a country bike path (flat land, next to a canal). I slipped on a large wet stone embedded in the path and again had to replace my helmet. I've fallen a few other times besides those two, but those are the worst two and I think without a helmet I would have been seriously injured if not dead.

kqr 4y ago

Ordinary upright/city bicycles have significant controllability problems at high (>50 km/h) speeds compared to e.g. cars. I think that's where "even bicycles" comes from, in this context. (Why am I using >50 km/h as the benchmark? Because that's the sort of speeds you easily end up at if you try to keep up with cars downhill.) ---- Edit: it seems that people are missing critical words in my comment: - "Ordinary upright/city bike" means "not road/touring/etc bikes". They are constructed differently and comfortably do well over 50 km/h. - "Downhill" means significant gravity assistance for a few seconds up to a minute, and not "sustained under pedaling power alone". I'd be impressed if you regularly did 50 km/h on the flats with one of those bicycles.

arcticbull 4y ago
> Ordinary upright/city bicycles have significant controllability problems at high (>50 km/h) speeds compared to e.g. cars. I think that's where "even bicycles" comes from, in this context. Who on earth is using ordinary city bikes at 50km/h near cars? Even class II e-bikes are limited to 20mph/32kph. Class III are limited to 28mph/45kph but are forbidden from bike paths. [edit] 50kph under your own power is the average speed at the Tour de France.
- grogenaut 4y ago
  I used to commute from Bellevue WA to Kirkland WA, the mainly way across the freeway was either to go down this road over the freeway that didn't used to have sidewalks https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6393386,-122.2032674,17.25z https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6393386,-122.2032674,17.25z or go 2 miles out of the way and up a huge hill. The right lane is where people wanted to go to get on the freeway at the time. It was easiest to just get in the left lane and do 40mph down the hill which is what cars did speed wise. People gave me plenty of berth if I was moving at car speeds. If I went slow on the right I got tailgated. My bike was quite stable at 40mph. No I wouldn't go that fast on a bike path, this was only due to the power of gravity.
- taeric 4y ago
  As I mentioned in sibling response, it is somewhat easy to get those speeds in any hilly place. Keeping them for extended times is, of course, out of the question. And my return commute has me well below that. Again for obvious reasons. :D Now, I fully agree with the spirit of your post. Even the spots I'm talking about are short bursts.
Ylpertnodi 4y ago
>Because that's the sort of speeds you easily end up at if you try to keep up with cars downhill Not many people will do >50kmh even downhill (even with disk brakes), and on the few occasions I've done so, I absolutely would not say there are "significant controllability problems". In fact, quite the opposite. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN6Z8UgVOuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN6Z8UgVOuw Nb - these were shot in the days before the 'supertuck' (sitting on the crossbar) was banned.
- taeric 4y ago
  I easily hit 35-40 mph on every commute to work with my bicycle on one of the downhills. Just 30mph is trivial to get to on any of the downhills with my bike, and is just slightly faster than many of the ebikes go with very little effort.
TheCoelacanth 4y ago
To be fair, if you're holding a professional cycling race, you should probably close off the roads to other traffic.

MichaelCollins 4y ago

A helmet has probably saved my life several times when riding my bike. In all cases, it was only me, my bike, and my idiocy involved, no third parties. All it takes is a little bit of loose gravel where you don't expect it, or a wet stone in the path that's a bit slippier than expected. Bicycles with helmets are fairly safe. Without helmets? No way, I'm not riding without a helmet. But scooters without helmets are much worse, I wouldn't dare go much more than 10mph on a scooter without a helmet.

aidenn0 4y ago
Don't forget wet leaves. I was riding my bike well after it had rained, and most of the path was dry, but there was a shady spot under a tree that still was wet and I basically lost all traction on it. Only time I ever "used" my helmet.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Or half buried campfire rings (aka a repurposed truck wheel rim) hidden by the grass on the side of a hill.. I think I must have done about two flips in the air after hitting that. At least in that case I don't think I hit my head hard, I landed in the same grass which cushioned my landing, but if there had been something else hidden in the grass I might have lost more than just a bicycle wheel.
Kim_Bruning 4y ago
Hmm, What kind of bike at what kind of speed on what kind of surface? It's entirely possible to ride a bike in a way that actually doesn't require a helmet. It's VERY boring :-P , but nevertheless practical and doable.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Probably about 15 to 20 mph. Once on a country road going down a hill in a bend; I slipped on loose gravel and had to replace my helmet. The second time, about the same speed but on a country bike path (flat land, next to a canal). I slipped on a large wet stone embedded in the path and again had to replace my helmet. I've fallen a few other times besides those two, but those are the worst two and I think without a helmet I would have been seriously injured if not dead.