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I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and

I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit.

yladiz 4y ago
> Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. You are framing it wrong. The west is not at war with Russia, Russia is at war with the west (via Ukraine). The west didn't start the war and saying that it doesn't matter who started it by calling the discussion trite is, well, itself trite because you're just seemingly trying to avoid the difficult point that the war was in fact started by Russia. And sure, Russia hasn't collapsed, but I don't think anyone expected Russia to collapse 8 months later and in reality they really aren't doing well. If they were doing well they wouldn't have needed to call a conscription and put policies in place to prevent bank runs.
mcv 4y ago
See how you have to twist every fact in order to preserve your worldview? First of all, who started it is not irrelevant; it's the entire reason for this war. Only Russia wants this war, and the only reason it's still going on is because Putin doesn't want to lose face. Because admitting he failed, would be admitting weakness and would weaken his position, which is something a strongman like him can't afford. But he could end the war any time he wants to. Secondly, the entire west is quite explicitly not at war with Russia. The entire west is explicitly staying out of the war in order to prevent a war with Russia, because they don't want to escalate the war. Putin is only painting it as a war with the west to the Russian people in order to justify his own failure. If the west had entered the war, Zelensky would have his no-fly zone and a lot more. Once NATO enters the war, there won't be much left of the Russian military positions in Ukraine, and Putin knows this very well. But he needs this lie in order to not look weak to his own people. The fact you believe Putin's propaganda suggests you listen too much to Russian state media.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. So, yes, Russia started this war, and the moral blame is on Russia. But when Russia says it's at war with the whole west, there is an element of truth in their position.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. Its mostly second rate western gear though, there's no to minimal western EW, theres no wester MBT's, theres no western aviation. Whilst the west has provided a lot this is no where near the actual military force of any modern western country.
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      Well then second rate gear must be all the west has? The western military industrial complex can't even keep up with the production of armaments they are sending to Ukraine[0]. - [0]: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/28/the-us-and-europe-are-running-out-of-weapons-to-send-to-ukraine.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/28/the-us-and-europe-are-runnin...
      - _kbh_ 4y ago
        > Well then second rate gear must be all the west has? Second rate gear that the west is trying to get rid of is what is being supplied, in part because its nearly as easy as mothballing and a lot of it just happens to cross over with what Ukraine needs. Also by definition the second rate gear may not even be in production anymore which would obviously make, acquiring more of it difficult. Theres no western fighters, EW, tanks or even large drones. Even with some of the good gear that is provided (M270 / HIMARS) they aren't even providing ATACMS or other longe range missiles (such as PrSm, or ER GLMRS).
_kbh_ 4y ago
> I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. Im interested in how not being able to even equip your own soldiers with modern body armour, weapons and even socks is 'holding better than we'd like to admit'.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  I suggest you provide more sources and less propaganda, it helps keep the discussion engaging.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    here's a source. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/10/05/crowdfunding-spotlights-russian-militarys-supply-problems-in-ukraine-a78969 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/10/05/crowdfunding-spotl...

yladiz 4y ago

> Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. You are framing it wrong. The west is not at war with Russia, Russia is at war with the west (via Ukraine). The west didn't start the war and saying that it doesn't matter who started it by calling the discussion trite is, well, itself trite because you're just seemingly trying to avoid the difficult point that the war was in fact started by Russia. And sure, Russia hasn't collapsed, but I don't think anyone expected Russia to collapse 8 months later and in reality they really aren't doing well. If they were doing well they wouldn't have needed to call a conscription and put policies in place to prevent bank runs.

mcv 4y ago

See how you have to twist every fact in order to preserve your worldview? First of all, who started it is not irrelevant; it's the entire reason for this war. Only Russia wants this war, and the only reason it's still going on is because Putin doesn't want to lose face. Because admitting he failed, would be admitting weakness and would weaken his position, which is something a strongman like him can't afford. But he could end the war any time he wants to. Secondly, the entire west is quite explicitly not at war with Russia. The entire west is explicitly staying out of the war in order to prevent a war with Russia, because they don't want to escalate the war. Putin is only painting it as a war with the west to the Russian people in order to justify his own failure. If the west had entered the war, Zelensky would have his no-fly zone and a lot more. Once NATO enters the war, there won't be much left of the Russian military positions in Ukraine, and Putin knows this very well. But he needs this lie in order to not look weak to his own people. The fact you believe Putin's propaganda suggests you listen too much to Russian state media.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. So, yes, Russia started this war, and the moral blame is on Russia. But when Russia says it's at war with the whole west, there is an element of truth in their position.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. Its mostly second rate western gear though, there's no to minimal western EW, theres no wester MBT's, theres no western aviation. Whilst the west has provided a lot this is no where near the actual military force of any modern western country.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    Well then second rate gear must be all the west has? The western military industrial complex can't even keep up with the production of armaments they are sending to Ukraine[0]. - [0]: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/28/the-us-and-europe-are-running-out-of-weapons-to-send-to-ukraine.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/28/the-us-and-europe-are-runnin...
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      > Well then second rate gear must be all the west has? Second rate gear that the west is trying to get rid of is what is being supplied, in part because its nearly as easy as mothballing and a lot of it just happens to cross over with what Ukraine needs. Also by definition the second rate gear may not even be in production anymore which would obviously make, acquiring more of it difficult. Theres no western fighters, EW, tanks or even large drones. Even with some of the good gear that is provided (M270 / HIMARS) they aren't even providing ATACMS or other longe range missiles (such as PrSm, or ER GLMRS).

_kbh_ 4y ago

> I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. Im interested in how not being able to even equip your own soldiers with modern body armour, weapons and even socks is 'holding better than we'd like to admit'.

pastacacioepepe 4y ago
I suggest you provide more sources and less propaganda, it helps keep the discussion engaging.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  here's a source. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/10/05/crowdfunding-spotlights-russian-militarys-supply-problems-in-ukraine-a78969 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/10/05/crowdfunding-spotl...