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> the same Russia that is surviving economic and military war from the entire west while Europe risks a political and economical collapse this winter, It's not

by mcv 4y ago

> the same Russia that is surviving economic and military war from the entire west while Europe risks a political and economical collapse this winter, It's not a war "from the entire west". The war is from Russia. They started a war that they can't finish, but even before the war, Russia hasn't been doing great, whereas all their former vassal states that have changed to democratic systems have been doing very well. In fact, that's part of the reason for Putin's war: if Ukraine goes the same route, that would show more clearly to the Russian people how badly Putin's system is failing, and they might demand the same for Russia. In fact, part of the reason that Russia is performing so badly in this war, is Russia's autocracy. Many officials who are supposed to inform Putin or perform certain military roles, are doing so not with the goal of doing the best possible job, but with the goal of not angering Putin. Because he can break them. So they lie about any bad news, which has lead Putin to start a bad war based on faulty information, with an army that's poorly lead.

pastacacioepepe 4y ago
I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit.
- yladiz 4y ago
  > Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. You are framing it wrong. The west is not at war with Russia, Russia is at war with the west (via Ukraine). The west didn't start the war and saying that it doesn't matter who started it by calling the discussion trite is, well, itself trite because you're just seemingly trying to avoid the difficult point that the war was in fact started by Russia. And sure, Russia hasn't collapsed, but I don't think anyone expected Russia to collapse 8 months later and in reality they really aren't doing well. If they were doing well they wouldn't have needed to call a conscription and put policies in place to prevent bank runs.
- mcv 4y ago
  See how you have to twist every fact in order to preserve your worldview? First of all, who started it is not irrelevant; it's the entire reason for this war. Only Russia wants this war, and the only reason it's still going on is because Putin doesn't want to lose face. Because admitting he failed, would be admitting weakness and would weaken his position, which is something a strongman like him can't afford. But he could end the war any time he wants to. Secondly, the entire west is quite explicitly not at war with Russia. The entire west is explicitly staying out of the war in order to prevent a war with Russia, because they don't want to escalate the war. Putin is only painting it as a war with the west to the Russian people in order to justify his own failure. If the west had entered the war, Zelensky would have his no-fly zone and a lot more. Once NATO enters the war, there won't be much left of the Russian military positions in Ukraine, and Putin knows this very well. But he needs this lie in order to not look weak to his own people. The fact you believe Putin's propaganda suggests you listen too much to Russian state media.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. So, yes, Russia started this war, and the moral blame is on Russia. But when Russia says it's at war with the whole west, there is an element of truth in their position.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      > Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. Its mostly second rate western gear though, there's no to minimal western EW, theres no wester MBT's, theres no western aviation. Whilst the west has provided a lot this is no where near the actual military force of any modern western country.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. Im interested in how not being able to even equip your own soldiers with modern body armour, weapons and even socks is 'holding better than we'd like to admit'.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    I suggest you provide more sources and less propaganda, it helps keep the discussion engaging.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      here's a source. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/10/05/crowdfunding-spotlights-russian-militarys-supply-problems-in-ukraine-a78969 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/10/05/crowdfunding-spotl...

by mcv 4y ago

pastacacioepepe 4y ago

I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit.

yladiz 4y ago
> Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. You are framing it wrong. The west is not at war with Russia, Russia is at war with the west (via Ukraine). The west didn't start the war and saying that it doesn't matter who started it by calling the discussion trite is, well, itself trite because you're just seemingly trying to avoid the difficult point that the war was in fact started by Russia. And sure, Russia hasn't collapsed, but I don't think anyone expected Russia to collapse 8 months later and in reality they really aren't doing well. If they were doing well they wouldn't have needed to call a conscription and put policies in place to prevent bank runs.
mcv 4y ago
See how you have to twist every fact in order to preserve your worldview? First of all, who started it is not irrelevant; it's the entire reason for this war. Only Russia wants this war, and the only reason it's still going on is because Putin doesn't want to lose face. Because admitting he failed, would be admitting weakness and would weaken his position, which is something a strongman like him can't afford. But he could end the war any time he wants to. Secondly, the entire west is quite explicitly not at war with Russia. The entire west is explicitly staying out of the war in order to prevent a war with Russia, because they don't want to escalate the war. Putin is only painting it as a war with the west to the Russian people in order to justify his own failure. If the west had entered the war, Zelensky would have his no-fly zone and a lot more. Once NATO enters the war, there won't be much left of the Russian military positions in Ukraine, and Putin knows this very well. But he needs this lie in order to not look weak to his own people. The fact you believe Putin's propaganda suggests you listen too much to Russian state media.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. So, yes, Russia started this war, and the moral blame is on Russia. But when Russia says it's at war with the whole west, there is an element of truth in their position.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. Its mostly second rate western gear though, there's no to minimal western EW, theres no wester MBT's, theres no western aviation. Whilst the west has provided a lot this is no where near the actual military force of any modern western country.
_kbh_ 4y ago
> I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. Im interested in how not being able to even equip your own soldiers with modern body armour, weapons and even socks is 'holding better than we'd like to admit'.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  I suggest you provide more sources and less propaganda, it helps keep the discussion engaging.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    here's a source. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/10/05/crowdfunding-spotlights-russian-militarys-supply-problems-in-ukraine-a78969 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/10/05/crowdfunding-spotl...