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> The fact is, generally, anyone in the US who has a capable brain and really tries can excel. This is a great populist message but not sure it can be backed u

> The fact is, generally, anyone in the US who has a capable brain and really tries can excel. This is a great populist message but not sure it can be backed up with enough data at any meaningful enough scale to enact policies. Just like if I posited, "Generally, there are a lot of smart, capable and hardworking people who are just surviving check to check." It feels good and there are plenty of anecdotes to back it up, but it's too vague to make policy decisions upon. Raj Chetty's research [0] on social mobility dives into the complexity of it all. [0] https://rajchetty.com/publications/ https://rajchetty.com/publications/ Edit: > But it's only a disadvantage, not a roadblock. You really nailed the crux of it here in terms of equality of opportunity vs. equity in opportunity. The unhappy compromise to avoid irreparable divisions in U.S. society lies somewhere between removing roadblocks vs. addressing disadvantages.

silisili 4y ago
Well it's easier for me to say, having grown up relatively poor in a relatively poor area. The kids who listened, took notes, participated, for the most part all did well in school and went off to college. Most kids did not, they were disruptive, asleep, rude, violent, etc. Public school was very frustrating to me for that reason, so I guess it struck a nerve. The equity vs equality is hard to square. Imagine someone who came from real poverty who worked 2 jobs while studying to give his family a better life. He or she makes it, finally, only for them and their kids to be punished for it come admissions time. Is that fair? I don't have great answers, I just feel like everything they try today isn't right, either.
- thelock85 4y ago
  I empathize with your experience having also grown up in relative poverty. But now that I have kids of my own and see other kids being disruptive, asleep, rude, violent, etc. I'm looking at those kids' parents and guardians like WTF? So just like it's not fair for the person working hard and studying to get their family a better life (equality of opportunity), it's also not fair to penalize minors who don't have those types of parents or can't outlast their broken environment to reach a better life (equity in opportunity). I don't have the answers either but think we should keep trying rather than accept some large number of kids can work hard and still fail due to circumstance beyond their reach. Especially when at the same time, some large number of kids can just be kids and eventually figure it out due to circumstance beyond their reach.

silisili 4y ago

Well it's easier for me to say, having grown up relatively poor in a relatively poor area. The kids who listened, took notes, participated, for the most part all did well in school and went off to college. Most kids did not, they were disruptive, asleep, rude, violent, etc. Public school was very frustrating to me for that reason, so I guess it struck a nerve. The equity vs equality is hard to square. Imagine someone who came from real poverty who worked 2 jobs while studying to give his family a better life. He or she makes it, finally, only for them and their kids to be punished for it come admissions time. Is that fair? I don't have great answers, I just feel like everything they try today isn't right, either.

thelock85 4y ago
I empathize with your experience having also grown up in relative poverty. But now that I have kids of my own and see other kids being disruptive, asleep, rude, violent, etc. I'm looking at those kids' parents and guardians like WTF? So just like it's not fair for the person working hard and studying to get their family a better life (equality of opportunity), it's also not fair to penalize minors who don't have those types of parents or can't outlast their broken environment to reach a better life (equity in opportunity). I don't have the answers either but think we should keep trying rather than accept some large number of kids can work hard and still fail due to circumstance beyond their reach. Especially when at the same time, some large number of kids can just be kids and eventually figure it out due to circumstance beyond their reach.