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You mean the same Russia that is surviving economic and military war from the entire west while Europe risks a political and economical collapse this winter, o

You mean the same Russia that is surviving economic and military war from the entire west while Europe risks a political and economical collapse this winter, or the Venezuela that survives despite inhumane sanctions imposed by the US, or the China that lifted hundreds of millions from poverty and that can build a colossal sophisticated high speed transport system in mere years while the US can't even build a small high speed railway in California without gigantic cost increases and delays of years, or even the Cuba that despite decades of inhumane sanctions from the US has one of the most advanced healthcare systems in the world?

mcv 4y ago
> the same Russia that is surviving economic and military war from the entire west while Europe risks a political and economical collapse this winter, It's not a war "from the entire west". The war is from Russia. They started a war that they can't finish, but even before the war, Russia hasn't been doing great, whereas all their former vassal states that have changed to democratic systems have been doing very well. In fact, that's part of the reason for Putin's war: if Ukraine goes the same route, that would show more clearly to the Russian people how badly Putin's system is failing, and they might demand the same for Russia. In fact, part of the reason that Russia is performing so badly in this war, is Russia's autocracy. Many officials who are supposed to inform Putin or perform certain military roles, are doing so not with the goal of doing the best possible job, but with the goal of not angering Putin. Because he can break them. So they lie about any bad news, which has lead Putin to start a bad war based on faulty information, with an army that's poorly lead.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit.
  - yladiz 4y ago
    > Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. You are framing it wrong. The west is not at war with Russia, Russia is at war with the west (via Ukraine). The west didn't start the war and saying that it doesn't matter who started it by calling the discussion trite is, well, itself trite because you're just seemingly trying to avoid the difficult point that the war was in fact started by Russia. And sure, Russia hasn't collapsed, but I don't think anyone expected Russia to collapse 8 months later and in reality they really aren't doing well. If they were doing well they wouldn't have needed to call a conscription and put policies in place to prevent bank runs.
  - mcv 4y ago
    See how you have to twist every fact in order to preserve your worldview? First of all, who started it is not irrelevant; it's the entire reason for this war. Only Russia wants this war, and the only reason it's still going on is because Putin doesn't want to lose face. Because admitting he failed, would be admitting weakness and would weaken his position, which is something a strongman like him can't afford. But he could end the war any time he wants to. Secondly, the entire west is quite explicitly not at war with Russia. The entire west is explicitly staying out of the war in order to prevent a war with Russia, because they don't want to escalate the war. Putin is only painting it as a war with the west to the Russian people in order to justify his own failure. If the west had entered the war, Zelensky would have his no-fly zone and a lot more. Once NATO enters the war, there won't be much left of the Russian military positions in Ukraine, and Putin knows this very well. But he needs this lie in order to not look weak to his own people. The fact you believe Putin's propaganda suggests you listen too much to Russian state media.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. So, yes, Russia started this war, and the moral blame is on Russia. But when Russia says it's at war with the whole west, there is an element of truth in their position.
Tainnor 4y ago
Somehow a democracy like Switzerland seems quite capable of building sophisticated transport systems and bringing prosperity to people without first having had to kill tens of millions in a supposed "Great Leap Forward".
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  Switzerland is literally a dot in the map compared to China. The investment and effort required to build a high speed transport system in each country is not even comparable. We should also wonder more about where does Switzerland's prosperity come from, as they aided very undemocratic war criminals in hiding their wealth for a long time. Not very coherent for a democratic country.
  - mcv 4y ago
    Most other European countries also have excellent public transport networks. It's not just Switzerland. It's certainly true that China has done a tremendous job developing their country, but it seems that just how much they really developed it is partially based on lies. They've exaggerated their economic growth for years, again because it's an autocracy and nobody dares to present anything less than the best economic growth figures. I saw an estimate recently that the Chinese economy is probably 60% smaller than they claim, and the same is true for many dictatorships. Because that is a feature of all autocracies: they can't afford to admit failure and therefore always present a more rosy picture than reality. It's why propaganda and control of the media is so important to them; they can't afford independent voices reporting what's really going on.
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      > They've exaggerated their economic growth for years, again because it's an autocracy and nobody dares to present anything less than the best economic growth figures. I saw an estimate recently that the Chinese economy is probably 60% smaller than they claim, and the same is true for many dictatorships. Source? This just sounds like more of the propaganda you're spreading in this thread, accompanied by no factual evidence. And why should we trust your "estimate" over what a government representing a bilion people says? If you are referring to local officials falsifying data[0] then the government wasn't behind it and actually punished it. Then we have comparisons with the "night lights" data that show that recent economic data from China actually makes sense[1]: "However, while the level of Chinese GDP may remain overstated, both the Li index and estimates from the night-lights data suggest that the recent growth rate numbers for Chinese official data are more reliable." Also, it's gonna be hard to fake an entire high speed railway, am I right? > again because it's an autocracy and nobody dares to present anything less than the best economic growth figures This is just knee-jerk ignorance coupled with western presumption of superiority. Go study how the political system works in China, you'll find out people have much more agency over many things than we have in the West. - [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-punishes-local-officials-falsifying-economic-data-2022-05-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-punishes-local-off... - [1] https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/second-quarter-2017/chinas-economic-data-an-accurate-reflection-or-just-smoke-and-mirrors#:~:text=An%20exaggerated%20level%20of%20output,official%20data%20are%20more%20reliable https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/s....

mcv 4y ago

> the same Russia that is surviving economic and military war from the entire west while Europe risks a political and economical collapse this winter, It's not a war "from the entire west". The war is from Russia. They started a war that they can't finish, but even before the war, Russia hasn't been doing great, whereas all their former vassal states that have changed to democratic systems have been doing very well. In fact, that's part of the reason for Putin's war: if Ukraine goes the same route, that would show more clearly to the Russian people how badly Putin's system is failing, and they might demand the same for Russia. In fact, part of the reason that Russia is performing so badly in this war, is Russia's autocracy. Many officials who are supposed to inform Putin or perform certain military roles, are doing so not with the goal of doing the best possible job, but with the goal of not angering Putin. Because he can break them. So they lie about any bad news, which has lead Putin to start a bad war based on faulty information, with an army that's poorly lead.

pastacacioepepe 4y ago
I'm not interested in wasting time over the trite debate of who started first. It's irrelevant. Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit.
- yladiz 4y ago
  > Put it how you want, the entire west is at war with Russia, and they are holding much better than we'd like to admit. You are framing it wrong. The west is not at war with Russia, Russia is at war with the west (via Ukraine). The west didn't start the war and saying that it doesn't matter who started it by calling the discussion trite is, well, itself trite because you're just seemingly trying to avoid the difficult point that the war was in fact started by Russia. And sure, Russia hasn't collapsed, but I don't think anyone expected Russia to collapse 8 months later and in reality they really aren't doing well. If they were doing well they wouldn't have needed to call a conscription and put policies in place to prevent bank runs.
- mcv 4y ago
  See how you have to twist every fact in order to preserve your worldview? First of all, who started it is not irrelevant; it's the entire reason for this war. Only Russia wants this war, and the only reason it's still going on is because Putin doesn't want to lose face. Because admitting he failed, would be admitting weakness and would weaken his position, which is something a strongman like him can't afford. But he could end the war any time he wants to. Secondly, the entire west is quite explicitly not at war with Russia. The entire west is explicitly staying out of the war in order to prevent a war with Russia, because they don't want to escalate the war. Putin is only painting it as a war with the west to the Russian people in order to justify his own failure. If the west had entered the war, Zelensky would have his no-fly zone and a lot more. Once NATO enters the war, there won't be much left of the Russian military positions in Ukraine, and Putin knows this very well. But he needs this lie in order to not look weak to his own people. The fact you believe Putin's propaganda suggests you listen too much to Russian state media.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Yes and no. No, the entire west is not kinetically at war with Russia. But yes, the west is supplying Ukraine with hardware, training, intel, cyber, and financial (at least). It's not just Russia vs Ukraine, it's Russia against Ukraine plus as much as the west can do without going kinetic. So, yes, Russia started this war, and the moral blame is on Russia. But when Russia says it's at war with the whole west, there is an element of truth in their position.

Tainnor 4y ago

Somehow a democracy like Switzerland seems quite capable of building sophisticated transport systems and bringing prosperity to people without first having had to kill tens of millions in a supposed "Great Leap Forward".

pastacacioepepe 4y ago
Switzerland is literally a dot in the map compared to China. The investment and effort required to build a high speed transport system in each country is not even comparable. We should also wonder more about where does Switzerland's prosperity come from, as they aided very undemocratic war criminals in hiding their wealth for a long time. Not very coherent for a democratic country.
- mcv 4y ago
  Most other European countries also have excellent public transport networks. It's not just Switzerland. It's certainly true that China has done a tremendous job developing their country, but it seems that just how much they really developed it is partially based on lies. They've exaggerated their economic growth for years, again because it's an autocracy and nobody dares to present anything less than the best economic growth figures. I saw an estimate recently that the Chinese economy is probably 60% smaller than they claim, and the same is true for many dictatorships. Because that is a feature of all autocracies: they can't afford to admit failure and therefore always present a more rosy picture than reality. It's why propaganda and control of the media is so important to them; they can't afford independent voices reporting what's really going on.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    > They've exaggerated their economic growth for years, again because it's an autocracy and nobody dares to present anything less than the best economic growth figures. I saw an estimate recently that the Chinese economy is probably 60% smaller than they claim, and the same is true for many dictatorships. Source? This just sounds like more of the propaganda you're spreading in this thread, accompanied by no factual evidence. And why should we trust your "estimate" over what a government representing a bilion people says? If you are referring to local officials falsifying data[0] then the government wasn't behind it and actually punished it. Then we have comparisons with the "night lights" data that show that recent economic data from China actually makes sense[1]: "However, while the level of Chinese GDP may remain overstated, both the Li index and estimates from the night-lights data suggest that the recent growth rate numbers for Chinese official data are more reliable." Also, it's gonna be hard to fake an entire high speed railway, am I right? > again because it's an autocracy and nobody dares to present anything less than the best economic growth figures This is just knee-jerk ignorance coupled with western presumption of superiority. Go study how the political system works in China, you'll find out people have much more agency over many things than we have in the West. - [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-punishes-local-officials-falsifying-economic-data-2022-05-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-punishes-local-off... - [1] https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/second-quarter-2017/chinas-economic-data-an-accurate-reflection-or-just-smoke-and-mirrors#:~:text=An%20exaggerated%20level%20of%20output,official%20data%20are%20more%20reliable https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/s....