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I've seen this change dramatically in the last few years. The people I knew 10 years ago who were the sortof frighteningly brilliant hackers have almost all be

I've seen this change dramatically in the last few years. The people I knew 10 years ago who were the sortof frighteningly brilliant hackers have almost all become religious (mostly traditional Catholics). I'm not saying this is an objective truth, just that this has been my experience.

geerlingguy 4y ago
I think part of that (specifically Catholic) stems from the fact that it's one of the few religions that is compatible with a scientific understanding of the world, where science is seen as a worthwhile study of creation, and not something that's dangerous and evil (like many modern fundamentalist groups seem to think). The danger IMO comes when people tie their religious belief too strongly to political movements, or think that just because there is doctrine around a certain aspect of human culture/life, there is no questioning it or investigating it further. A healthy skepticism (especially over one's own beliefs) is central to a good life IMO.
- sweettea 4y ago
  Note, though, the prevalence of specifically traditional Catholics. Traditionalists tend to reject in whole or part modern Catholicism's ecumenical angles, and embrace the black and white they perceive Catholicism used to have. It's a curious mixture of using one's own judgement to decide what of the past are worth following, and a steady belief in doing and believing things of the past, whether you understand the reasoning or not.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > I think part of that (specifically Catholic) stems from the fact that it's one of the few religions that is compatible with a scientific understanding of the world, I went to Catholic school growing up, and I did not see anything in religion classes that involved updating models of the world that conflicted with data. In fact, it was the exact opposite.
  - breck 4y ago
    I mostly agree but also went to a Jesuit high school and there were some super enlightened Jesuits. So a bit of a mixed bag.
  - criddell 4y ago
    What are some examples where the data is in conflict with modern Catholic teachings?
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      I have not kept up with modern Catholic teachings, but I recall the idea of infallible sources or truths and that conflicts with the scientific process. A religion compatible with the scientific understanding of the world would be one that is open to amending its assumptions at anytime. At least that is my understanding of science.
    - hitekker 4y ago
      In my experience, "Data" is just a devout reverence for statistics. It claims to be a science but, like other modern belief systems strays into trying to be the "source of truth & the end of truth". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataism A weird pseudo-religion.
hoffs 4y ago
[flagged]
jstarfish 4y ago
My pet theory is that people who exercise enough control over others/their environment get "bored" with it and want to feel like there's something out there bigger than themselves that they don't have dominion over. Alternately, once you've had your fun with the more-complicated aspects of human technological advancement, you arrive at the gordian knot of religion-- the one construct nobody has managed to truly reverse-engineer. (I think this is what attracts the schizophrenics-- they believe they've succeeded where everyone else fails.) To your point, Catholicism is very binary (pun intended) in terms of ideology. Little wonder it attracts the computer-minded.
Barrin92 4y ago
Peter Thiel / Curtis Yarvin adjacent folks have in recent years heavily pushed these kinds of views in certain parts of the tech scene, Hotz tends to quote them frequently. It's not really religious Catholicism as much as an aesthetic for reactionary politics because you're more likely to find many of these newly minted Catholics at an 'Eyes White Shut' party than at mass. His syncretism of Christianity with Bronze Age Pervert in this very blog post should immediately remind people of Umberto Eco: "One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. The most influential theoretical source of the theories of the new Italian right, Julius Evola, merged the Holy Grail with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alchemy with the Holy Roman and Germanic Empire. The very fact that the Italian right, in order to show its open-mindedness, recently broadened its syllabus to include works by De Maistre, Guenon, and Gramsci, is a blatant proof of syncretism. If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge — that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism."
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  A lot of these guys (not Hotz but the Moldbug-adjacent Orthosphere bloggers) were big fans of Eastern Orthodoxy a decade ago, not sure how that trend diminished while tradcath got so big, especially with the current pope being a conciliatory figure.
- brindlejim 4y ago
  Fwiw, Bronze Age Pervert (BAP) is actually a classics scholar named Costin Alamariu, who holds a PhD from Yale and wrote a dissertation on the tyrants of antiquity. He puts on a Slavic accent for his podcast, but he moved to the US as a boy and speaks perfect American English. BAP wrote a book popular in right-wing circles called Bronze-Age Mindset. In the late teens, it was reviewed in a couple of the usual places by conservative figures. BAP has lost a lot of steam since then, and it doesn't look like he'll lead his group of Frogs and fringe-heads to direct action, even though he fetishizes the warrior class. BAP and his fellow travelers were early believers in Trump and grew disillusioned. They were consistent champions of Putin as well -- after all, he appeared topless on a horse and learned karate. I can only imagine that Russia's military failures in Ukraine have made them seek other idols. The good thing about BAP is that he knows his sources. He has mastered political philosophy and read the original texts to a depth and degree that jokers like Yarvin cannot aspire to. Like Yarvin, BAP wants a strong man. He does not believe in democracy. He does believe in racial superiority and inferiority. While I happen to disagree with him about a lot of issues, including those, for all the usual reasons, if I were to engage him on his own terms, I would simply point out that authoritarian regimes like those he idolizes have really obvious weaknesses. Those include the inability to maintain high-quality, transparent communication under a punitive regime, and the inability of a kleptocracy to inspire the kind of collection action that wins wars. BAP is chasing a pipe dream.
cjbgkagh 4y ago
I think it’s a weird counter culture where social conservatives can find refuge. The rationals given for being religious are found post-facto. It’s my opinion that religious elements are being recreated in atheistic society especially in Academia. By keeping religious elements bound to an actual religion, and especially to an old slow moving traditionalist religion, it keeps those elements out of the rest of society. I think not having religion is not an option due to the way some people are wired.
serf 4y ago
I've had a similar experience, but rather than a religion they've turned to homesteading and 'near-Amish' living-behavior. It's kind of fascinating to me; it feels like another fork one can take in response to burnout -- something I know they all ran into at one point or another.
ramraj07 4y ago
I’ve noticed that almost universally, a smart person embracing religion when they’re an adult, choose a religion which their family followed when they were a child. Also only if religion was a big part of their family’s identity.

geerlingguy 4y ago

I think part of that (specifically Catholic) stems from the fact that it's one of the few religions that is compatible with a scientific understanding of the world, where science is seen as a worthwhile study of creation, and not something that's dangerous and evil (like many modern fundamentalist groups seem to think). The danger IMO comes when people tie their religious belief too strongly to political movements, or think that just because there is doctrine around a certain aspect of human culture/life, there is no questioning it or investigating it further. A healthy skepticism (especially over one's own beliefs) is central to a good life IMO.

sweettea 4y ago
Note, though, the prevalence of specifically traditional Catholics. Traditionalists tend to reject in whole or part modern Catholicism's ecumenical angles, and embrace the black and white they perceive Catholicism used to have. It's a curious mixture of using one's own judgement to decide what of the past are worth following, and a steady belief in doing and believing things of the past, whether you understand the reasoning or not.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
> I think part of that (specifically Catholic) stems from the fact that it's one of the few religions that is compatible with a scientific understanding of the world, I went to Catholic school growing up, and I did not see anything in religion classes that involved updating models of the world that conflicted with data. In fact, it was the exact opposite.
- breck 4y ago
  I mostly agree but also went to a Jesuit high school and there were some super enlightened Jesuits. So a bit of a mixed bag.
- criddell 4y ago
  What are some examples where the data is in conflict with modern Catholic teachings?
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I have not kept up with modern Catholic teachings, but I recall the idea of infallible sources or truths and that conflicts with the scientific process. A religion compatible with the scientific understanding of the world would be one that is open to amending its assumptions at anytime. At least that is my understanding of science.
  - hitekker 4y ago
    In my experience, "Data" is just a devout reverence for statistics. It claims to be a science but, like other modern belief systems strays into trying to be the "source of truth & the end of truth". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataism A weird pseudo-religion.

hoffs 4y ago

[flagged]

jstarfish 4y ago

My pet theory is that people who exercise enough control over others/their environment get "bored" with it and want to feel like there's something out there bigger than themselves that they don't have dominion over. Alternately, once you've had your fun with the more-complicated aspects of human technological advancement, you arrive at the gordian knot of religion-- the one construct nobody has managed to truly reverse-engineer. (I think this is what attracts the schizophrenics-- they believe they've succeeded where everyone else fails.) To your point, Catholicism is very binary (pun intended) in terms of ideology. Little wonder it attracts the computer-minded.

Barrin92 4y ago

Peter Thiel / Curtis Yarvin adjacent folks have in recent years heavily pushed these kinds of views in certain parts of the tech scene, Hotz tends to quote them frequently. It's not really religious Catholicism as much as an aesthetic for reactionary politics because you're more likely to find many of these newly minted Catholics at an 'Eyes White Shut' party than at mass. His syncretism of Christianity with Bronze Age Pervert in this very blog post should immediately remind people of Umberto Eco: "One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. The most influential theoretical source of the theories of the new Italian right, Julius Evola, merged the Holy Grail with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alchemy with the Holy Roman and Germanic Empire. The very fact that the Italian right, in order to show its open-mindedness, recently broadened its syllabus to include works by De Maistre, Guenon, and Gramsci, is a blatant proof of syncretism. If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge — that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism."

Apocryphon 4y ago
A lot of these guys (not Hotz but the Moldbug-adjacent Orthosphere bloggers) were big fans of Eastern Orthodoxy a decade ago, not sure how that trend diminished while tradcath got so big, especially with the current pope being a conciliatory figure.
brindlejim 4y ago
Fwiw, Bronze Age Pervert (BAP) is actually a classics scholar named Costin Alamariu, who holds a PhD from Yale and wrote a dissertation on the tyrants of antiquity. He puts on a Slavic accent for his podcast, but he moved to the US as a boy and speaks perfect American English. BAP wrote a book popular in right-wing circles called Bronze-Age Mindset. In the late teens, it was reviewed in a couple of the usual places by conservative figures. BAP has lost a lot of steam since then, and it doesn't look like he'll lead his group of Frogs and fringe-heads to direct action, even though he fetishizes the warrior class. BAP and his fellow travelers were early believers in Trump and grew disillusioned. They were consistent champions of Putin as well -- after all, he appeared topless on a horse and learned karate. I can only imagine that Russia's military failures in Ukraine have made them seek other idols. The good thing about BAP is that he knows his sources. He has mastered political philosophy and read the original texts to a depth and degree that jokers like Yarvin cannot aspire to. Like Yarvin, BAP wants a strong man. He does not believe in democracy. He does believe in racial superiority and inferiority. While I happen to disagree with him about a lot of issues, including those, for all the usual reasons, if I were to engage him on his own terms, I would simply point out that authoritarian regimes like those he idolizes have really obvious weaknesses. Those include the inability to maintain high-quality, transparent communication under a punitive regime, and the inability of a kleptocracy to inspire the kind of collection action that wins wars. BAP is chasing a pipe dream.

cjbgkagh 4y ago

I think it’s a weird counter culture where social conservatives can find refuge. The rationals given for being religious are found post-facto. It’s my opinion that religious elements are being recreated in atheistic society especially in Academia. By keeping religious elements bound to an actual religion, and especially to an old slow moving traditionalist religion, it keeps those elements out of the rest of society. I think not having religion is not an option due to the way some people are wired.

serf 4y ago

I've had a similar experience, but rather than a religion they've turned to homesteading and 'near-Amish' living-behavior. It's kind of fascinating to me; it feels like another fork one can take in response to burnout -- something I know they all ran into at one point or another.

ramraj07 4y ago

I’ve noticed that almost universally, a smart person embracing religion when they’re an adult, choose a religion which their family followed when they were a child. Also only if religion was a big part of their family’s identity.