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This is huge. Remix is my favorite React framework at the moment. It is by far the best abstraction I've seen of client/server model. Their API abstraction laye

This is huge. Remix is my favorite React framework at the moment. It is by far the best abstraction I've seen of client/server model. Their API abstraction layer is just right, working with native browser and nodejs APIs, not obscure them. Typescript support is amazing. I'd bet my money on Remix model and direction vs Nextjs

evtothedev 4y ago
> I'd bet my money on Remix model and direction vs Nextjs With Nextjs 13, the patterns are actually kind of converge. See this whole thread from Ryan at Remix with his thoughts on it: https://twitter.com/ryanflorence/status/1586820806625046529 https://twitter.com/ryanflorence/status/1586820806625046529
- rektide 4y ago
  this drive to remake runat="server" worries me. i get the good intrnt to make pages fast, but making thin client pages like this radically reduces the general utility & agency of the web. good discussion. still a worrying world to me.
  - RussianCow 4y ago
    > i get the good intrnt to make pages fast, but making thin client pages like this radically reduces the general utility & agency of the web. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Remix and related technologies don't limit what you can do on the client—you still have the full power of React at your fingertips. The difference is that they blur the lines between client and server such that you get more or less seamless server-side rendering in order to populate a web page before you hydrate it client-side with React. If anything, Remix allows you to use React for more use cases where it otherwise would not have been the right tool.
    - rektide 4y ago
      a developr can limit the power of user-agency by moving increasing amounts of power to the server. this trend amplifies developers potential. and it allows targetting "dumber" web clients. yay, good things. but it also makes the most advanced & competent web users less able & less capable. web apps have, for a while now, been fairly client-heavy, in a way that enables hacking & creativity. i'd love a strong counter-thesis for why this isn't the case, but this feels like a mainframization of computing, a push towards centralized control. it has upsides, as you point out, but also it keeps much more reserved & controlled & hidden. that is not very "web" like, tbh.
      - replygirl 4y ago
        the SPA era was a fluke. what we're seeing with SSR adoption in the last few years is that all the new goodies we got used to in SPA frameworks are coming back in line with the traditional web model, where i get a new document from the service after each meaningful interaction
jahewson 4y ago
Vercel already ate Remix’s lunch.
- mr90210 4y ago
  By far.
- theklr 4y ago
  While it may seem that way there’s still plenty of market share on the table. Add vercel’s increasing coupling to its deployment system for best features, others will always welcome more agnostic approaches.
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  I was surprised how calm the remix developers reactions to the next 13 announcement were given how similar some of the new next features are. But now it makes sense! Upcoming acquisition on the horizon.
  - jackbravo 4y ago
    Very related: https://twitter.com/ryanflorence/status/1587096603822673920 https://twitter.com/ryanflorence/status/1587096603822673920 > Seeing that Next.js 13 preview before this acquisition would have put me in major defensive mode "HEY THATS OUR API" but now I'm just super chill and can work on Remix instead of my mental health
    - asadlionpk 4y ago
      Because they cashed out, don't care anymore $_$. Looks like Shopify's diligence team should be blamed here.
      - lostcolony 4y ago
        Should they be though? I'm not at all familiar with the specifics at play here, but from a company perspective, a player they can then fully shepherd to prioritize their own needs/desires for, is still a win against an alternative that would be more expensive to acquire, and which if they don't they can't own priorities for. Obviously there would need to be a balance between determining roadmap for your own needs, and building something to more broadly appeal to use in the outside world, but getting to influence that without creating a fork is still huge. And that's without the other considerations of the acquihire aspect.
klysm 4y ago
Not 100% sure this is a positive thing for the Remix framework long term.
pokpokpok 4y ago
could you characterize the difference you see between them? (to someone more familiar with nextjs?)
- emadabdulrahim 4y ago
  High-level summary of Remix data model:https://remix.run/blog/remix-data-flow https://remix.run/blog/remix-data-flow See also https://remix.run/blog/remix-vs-next https://remix.run/blog/remix-vs-next
psychoslave 4y ago
Wait, isn't React a js framework? Is Remix a framework over a framework?
- vlunkr 4y ago
  It's technically a UI library. Though the line there is fuzzy.
- vosper 4y ago
  If we're calling both "framework" (though as another commenter mentioned, the React package is pretty much just a UI library) then you can think of React as a UI framework and Remix as an application framework. You use the React UI framework in the Remix (or NextJS) application framework.
  - laputan_machine 4y ago
    To be a pedantic shit, I wouldn't say React is a _UI_ library. React's deal at the time of its release was 3 things: - You can mix js and 'html' in one component - The unidirectional 'flow' of state - The internal model / diffing so only components that changed would update the dom It's a mix of a library (the 'html' elements) and an architecture pattern (unidirectional flow) imo. I'd expect a UI library to be things like buttons, windows, UI components, etc.
- pier25 4y ago
  React is a library. Remix is a framework.
  - dntrkv 4y ago
    React is a framework though. The main differentiator between the two is Inversion of Control. React developers write their code to be called by the React application. You aren't choosing to include React or not (what you would do with a library), your whole frontend application is built within the context of the React environment in which it will run.
ornornor 4y ago
Wait what? We have frameworks for frameworks now? What?? How did we get there :(
- savanaly 4y ago
  I think React is better described as a library than a framework. Frameworks for libraries sounds entirely reasonable to me.
  - davnicwil 4y ago
    not only reasonable but an inevitable conclusion I'd argue. I've been waiting for the current crop of React frameworks (of which Remix is my current favourite but they all bring cool thing to the table) to appear since the early days of using it - it was only a matter of time. First the library, then the patterns, then the ecosystem of add ons implementing those patterns, then the projects that scaffold sensible sets of those together for you along with a build setup etc, and finally... the all in one framework that does it all out the box.
    - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
      > the all in one framework that does it all out the box Wouldn't Angular and Vue count as cohesive "batteries included" frameworks? Having to work on your own build setup feels very inane.
      - ddyevf635372 4y ago
        +1 for Ember.js as well :)
  - super256 4y ago
    React does indeed describe itself as a library.
    - eurasiantiger 4y ago
tpmx 4y ago
> This is huge. Remix is my favorite React framework at the moment. I suppose this means it's temporarily huge.
- whatever1 4y ago
  Until someone comes up with a higher level abstraction that compiles to Remix

evtothedev 4y ago

> I'd bet my money on Remix model and direction vs Nextjs With Nextjs 13, the patterns are actually kind of converge. See this whole thread from Ryan at Remix with his thoughts on it: https://twitter.com/ryanflorence/status/1586820806625046529 https://twitter.com/ryanflorence/status/1586820806625046529

rektide 4y ago
this drive to remake runat="server" worries me. i get the good intrnt to make pages fast, but making thin client pages like this radically reduces the general utility & agency of the web. good discussion. still a worrying world to me.
- RussianCow 4y ago
  > i get the good intrnt to make pages fast, but making thin client pages like this radically reduces the general utility & agency of the web. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Remix and related technologies don't limit what you can do on the client—you still have the full power of React at your fingertips. The difference is that they blur the lines between client and server such that you get more or less seamless server-side rendering in order to populate a web page before you hydrate it client-side with React. If anything, Remix allows you to use React for more use cases where it otherwise would not have been the right tool.
  - rektide 4y ago
    a developr can limit the power of user-agency by moving increasing amounts of power to the server. this trend amplifies developers potential. and it allows targetting "dumber" web clients. yay, good things. but it also makes the most advanced & competent web users less able & less capable. web apps have, for a while now, been fairly client-heavy, in a way that enables hacking & creativity. i'd love a strong counter-thesis for why this isn't the case, but this feels like a mainframization of computing, a push towards centralized control. it has upsides, as you point out, but also it keeps much more reserved & controlled & hidden. that is not very "web" like, tbh.
    - replygirl 4y ago
      the SPA era was a fluke. what we're seeing with SSR adoption in the last few years is that all the new goodies we got used to in SPA frameworks are coming back in line with the traditional web model, where i get a new document from the service after each meaningful interaction

jahewson 4y ago

Vercel already ate Remix’s lunch.

mr90210 4y ago
By far.
theklr 4y ago
While it may seem that way there’s still plenty of market share on the table. Add vercel’s increasing coupling to its deployment system for best features, others will always welcome more agnostic approaches.
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
I was surprised how calm the remix developers reactions to the next 13 announcement were given how similar some of the new next features are. But now it makes sense! Upcoming acquisition on the horizon.
- jackbravo 4y ago
  Very related: https://twitter.com/ryanflorence/status/1587096603822673920 https://twitter.com/ryanflorence/status/1587096603822673920 > Seeing that Next.js 13 preview before this acquisition would have put me in major defensive mode "HEY THATS OUR API" but now I'm just super chill and can work on Remix instead of my mental health
  - asadlionpk 4y ago
    Because they cashed out, don't care anymore $_$. Looks like Shopify's diligence team should be blamed here.
    - lostcolony 4y ago
      Should they be though? I'm not at all familiar with the specifics at play here, but from a company perspective, a player they can then fully shepherd to prioritize their own needs/desires for, is still a win against an alternative that would be more expensive to acquire, and which if they don't they can't own priorities for. Obviously there would need to be a balance between determining roadmap for your own needs, and building something to more broadly appeal to use in the outside world, but getting to influence that without creating a fork is still huge. And that's without the other considerations of the acquihire aspect.

klysm 4y ago

Not 100% sure this is a positive thing for the Remix framework long term.

pokpokpok 4y ago

could you characterize the difference you see between them? (to someone more familiar with nextjs?)

emadabdulrahim 4y ago
High-level summary of Remix data model:https://remix.run/blog/remix-data-flow https://remix.run/blog/remix-data-flow See also https://remix.run/blog/remix-vs-next https://remix.run/blog/remix-vs-next

psychoslave 4y ago

Wait, isn't React a js framework? Is Remix a framework over a framework?

vlunkr 4y ago
It's technically a UI library. Though the line there is fuzzy.
vosper 4y ago
If we're calling both "framework" (though as another commenter mentioned, the React package is pretty much just a UI library) then you can think of React as a UI framework and Remix as an application framework. You use the React UI framework in the Remix (or NextJS) application framework.
- laputan_machine 4y ago
  To be a pedantic shit, I wouldn't say React is a _UI_ library. React's deal at the time of its release was 3 things: - You can mix js and 'html' in one component - The unidirectional 'flow' of state - The internal model / diffing so only components that changed would update the dom It's a mix of a library (the 'html' elements) and an architecture pattern (unidirectional flow) imo. I'd expect a UI library to be things like buttons, windows, UI components, etc.
pier25 4y ago
React is a library. Remix is a framework.
- dntrkv 4y ago
  React is a framework though. The main differentiator between the two is Inversion of Control. React developers write their code to be called by the React application. You aren't choosing to include React or not (what you would do with a library), your whole frontend application is built within the context of the React environment in which it will run.

ornornor 4y ago

Wait what? We have frameworks for frameworks now? What?? How did we get there :(

savanaly 4y ago
I think React is better described as a library than a framework. Frameworks for libraries sounds entirely reasonable to me.
- davnicwil 4y ago
  not only reasonable but an inevitable conclusion I'd argue. I've been waiting for the current crop of React frameworks (of which Remix is my current favourite but they all bring cool thing to the table) to appear since the early days of using it - it was only a matter of time. First the library, then the patterns, then the ecosystem of add ons implementing those patterns, then the projects that scaffold sensible sets of those together for you along with a build setup etc, and finally... the all in one framework that does it all out the box.
  - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
    > the all in one framework that does it all out the box Wouldn't Angular and Vue count as cohesive "batteries included" frameworks? Having to work on your own build setup feels very inane.
    - ddyevf635372 4y ago
      +1 for Ember.js as well :)
- super256 4y ago
  React does indeed describe itself as a library.
  - eurasiantiger 4y ago

tpmx 4y ago

> This is huge. Remix is my favorite React framework at the moment. I suppose this means it's temporarily huge.

whatever1 4y ago
Until someone comes up with a higher level abstraction that compiles to Remix