4 ms·

Not only this, but he's demanding people work 12+ hour days through weekends or get fired "for cause". He's doing everything he can to make layoffs happen with

Not only this, but he's demanding people work 12+ hour days through weekends or get fired "for cause". He's doing everything he can to make layoffs happen without actually laying people off, which sure seems like he's trying to evade California's 60 day warning for layoffs. I suspect we'll see him in court over how this was handled.

spacemadness 4y ago
I guess the question is, what are the limits on how you treat existing employees to avoid laws regarding layoffs by forcing a mass exodus?
- xsmasher 4y ago
  When it crosses the line into "constructive dismissal" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_States_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_...
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  Up to but not including "constructive dismissal". The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission(EEOC) provides a three part test to evaluate constructive dismissal[1]: 1. a reasonable person in the complainant's position would have found the working conditions intolerable 2. conduct that constituted discrimination against the complainant created the intolerable working conditions 3. the complainant's involuntary resignation resulted from the intolerable working conditions The test isn't necessarily something we would be able to make a definitive decision on here. It is intended to be used in the courtroom where each component would be necessary to establish constructive dismissal and evidence for and contrary to each point would be presented to a judge/jury. As you can rightly assume "reasonable", "intolerable", and "discrimination" are doing a lot of heavy lifting, and I'd expect and decision to rest on what constitutes "reasonable", "intolerable", and "discrimination". 1. https://federalemployeelawblog.com/2017/07/10/constructive-discharge-for-federal-employees/ https://federalemployeelawblog.com/2017/07/10/constructive-d...
_wolfie_ 4y ago
> Not only this, but he's demanding people work 12+ hour days through weekends or get fired "for cause". Question from Europe: Is that actually legal in the US? :-O
- hprotagonist 4y ago
  no, but do you have the funds to prove the point?
  - Volundr 4y ago
    The department of labor does. Even here in Idaho it's amazing how excited the legal team gets when sent a letter of inquiry from the DoL. I imagine they have more teeth in CA.
- marstall 4y ago
  possibly not - but we're all so brainwashed it wouldn't occur to us to question it ... work hard play hard!
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Yes. The set of conditions that make it illegal to fire somebody in the US are very very small. "I need everybody to crunch 80 hour weeks for months and months" is a thing employers can do for most forms of white collar knowledge work.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- klyrs 4y ago
  There's already a class action suit underway regarding Tesla's mass constructive dismissal, so it'll be really interesting to see all this go down. In the US, there are two things to consider: legality, and lawsuits. Regardless of legality, you can still drown in lawsuits.

spacemadness 4y ago

I guess the question is, what are the limits on how you treat existing employees to avoid laws regarding layoffs by forcing a mass exodus?

xsmasher 4y ago
When it crosses the line into "constructive dismissal" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_States_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_...
kelseyfrog 4y ago
Up to but not including "constructive dismissal". The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission(EEOC) provides a three part test to evaluate constructive dismissal[1]: 1. a reasonable person in the complainant's position would have found the working conditions intolerable 2. conduct that constituted discrimination against the complainant created the intolerable working conditions 3. the complainant's involuntary resignation resulted from the intolerable working conditions The test isn't necessarily something we would be able to make a definitive decision on here. It is intended to be used in the courtroom where each component would be necessary to establish constructive dismissal and evidence for and contrary to each point would be presented to a judge/jury. As you can rightly assume "reasonable", "intolerable", and "discrimination" are doing a lot of heavy lifting, and I'd expect and decision to rest on what constitutes "reasonable", "intolerable", and "discrimination". 1. https://federalemployeelawblog.com/2017/07/10/constructive-discharge-for-federal-employees/ https://federalemployeelawblog.com/2017/07/10/constructive-d...

_wolfie_ 4y ago

> Not only this, but he's demanding people work 12+ hour days through weekends or get fired "for cause". Question from Europe: Is that actually legal in the US? :-O

hprotagonist 4y ago
no, but do you have the funds to prove the point?
- Volundr 4y ago
  The department of labor does. Even here in Idaho it's amazing how excited the legal team gets when sent a letter of inquiry from the DoL. I imagine they have more teeth in CA.
marstall 4y ago
possibly not - but we're all so brainwashed it wouldn't occur to us to question it ... work hard play hard!
UncleMeat 4y ago
Yes. The set of conditions that make it illegal to fire somebody in the US are very very small. "I need everybody to crunch 80 hour weeks for months and months" is a thing employers can do for most forms of white collar knowledge work.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
klyrs 4y ago
There's already a class action suit underway regarding Tesla's mass constructive dismissal, so it'll be really interesting to see all this go down. In the US, there are two things to consider: legality, and lawsuits. Regardless of legality, you can still drown in lawsuits.