5 ms·

Theory of what’s going to happen next at Twitter

21 points by joeatwork 4y ago

socialismisok 4y ago
Not only this, but he's demanding people work 12+ hour days through weekends or get fired "for cause". He's doing everything he can to make layoffs happen without actually laying people off, which sure seems like he's trying to evade California's 60 day warning for layoffs. I suspect we'll see him in court over how this was handled.
- spacemadness 4y ago
  I guess the question is, what are the limits on how you treat existing employees to avoid laws regarding layoffs by forcing a mass exodus?
  - xsmasher 4y ago
    When it crosses the line into "constructive dismissal" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_States_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_...
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    Up to but not including "constructive dismissal". The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission(EEOC) provides a three part test to evaluate constructive dismissal[1]: 1. a reasonable person in the complainant's position would have found the working conditions intolerable 2. conduct that constituted discrimination against the complainant created the intolerable working conditions 3. the complainant's involuntary resignation resulted from the intolerable working conditions The test isn't necessarily something we would be able to make a definitive decision on here. It is intended to be used in the courtroom where each component would be necessary to establish constructive dismissal and evidence for and contrary to each point would be presented to a judge/jury. As you can rightly assume "reasonable", "intolerable", and "discrimination" are doing a lot of heavy lifting, and I'd expect and decision to rest on what constitutes "reasonable", "intolerable", and "discrimination". 1. https://federalemployeelawblog.com/2017/07/10/constructive-discharge-for-federal-employees/ https://federalemployeelawblog.com/2017/07/10/constructive-d...
- _wolfie_ 4y ago
  > Not only this, but he's demanding people work 12+ hour days through weekends or get fired "for cause". Question from Europe: Is that actually legal in the US? :-O
  - hprotagonist 4y ago
    no, but do you have the funds to prove the point?
    - Volundr 4y ago
      The department of labor does. Even here in Idaho it's amazing how excited the legal team gets when sent a letter of inquiry from the DoL. I imagine they have more teeth in CA.
  - marstall 4y ago
    possibly not - but we're all so brainwashed it wouldn't occur to us to question it ... work hard play hard!
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    Yes. The set of conditions that make it illegal to fire somebody in the US are very very small. "I need everybody to crunch 80 hour weeks for months and months" is a thing employers can do for most forms of white collar knowledge work.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - klyrs 4y ago
    There's already a class action suit underway regarding Tesla's mass constructive dismissal, so it'll be really interesting to see all this go down. In the US, there are two things to consider: legality, and lawsuits. Regardless of legality, you can still drown in lawsuits.
lightmyst 4y ago
He's mentioned several times that him expecting his employees to work 10-12 hours a day is ok because he himself works 18+ hours. How does he expect to retain employees when other companies pay way more than Tesla does for way fewer work hours? Am I missing something?
- bogantech 4y ago
  All those companies have hiring freezes and layoffs going on at the moment
  - beardyw 4y ago
    And Twitter doesn't?
    - ergocoder 4y ago
      Twitter does, but the point is: there is no where to go. They are stuck.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > How does he expect to retain employees when other companies pay way more than Tesla does for way fewer work hours? Am I missing something? Cults? At least for Telsa and SpaceX, his propaganda (PR) efforts have established some grand "for the good of humanity" narratives," for the companies, and passionate true-believers are easily exploited.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  It is just so hard to believe that the man is working 18 hour days given how much time he spends pulling stupid fucking stunts.
  - bananapub 4y ago
    I am completely certain he considers "posting on twitter" etc to be "work", even before he started the Twitter acquisition game.
kweingar 4y ago
Elon has a fascinating ability to make people look at things from his point of view. Suppose the story was something like “Jeff Bezos acquires company, immediately slashes workforce, maneuvers to avoid paying severance, reportedly forces engineers to work nights and weekends under threat of dismissal (and probably will lay them off anyway).” The tech community would be pretty united in saying the engineers would have to take care of themselves first in this situation. But when it comes to Musk, the community is more amenable to looking at it from a business perspective. I have seen a sentiment of “tough shit, if you don’t like it then quit, he has no obligation to you.” There are many who call the engineers entitled or otherwise resent them for pursuing a strategy of “weather the storm until assured of some kind of severance and then immediately quit.” Hackers are a community that rail against upper management for being out of touch and implementing stupid processes, but when it comes to Musk allegedly telling engineers to print their code on paper, some say “well that’s not too much effort, plus you’re being paid to do what management asks, so don’t whine about it.”
- jmeister 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference... Hackers may have even more contempt for the slackers and sanctimonious activists currently at Twitter. This is just like the far-left and the far-right aligning with Russia, because they loathe their immediate opposition so much.
  - kweingar 4y ago
    Ahh, this makes sense to me. I have been accused of looking at this entirely through the lens of hating Musk, but I imagine that many are looking at this entirely through the lens of hating Twitter. Pretty short-sighted imo. My opinion about new leadership forcing engineers to work nights and weekends is entirely unaffected by the company’s former PR strategy for handling culture war issues.
    - pjc50 4y ago
      > through the lens of hating Musk, but I imagine that many are looking at this entirely through the lens of hating Twitter. The "internet of beefs" is very real. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2020/01/16/the-internet-of-beefs/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2020/01/16/the-internet-of-beefs/ (not a Rao supporter, but this essay is so spot on at describing the phenomenon)
Imnimo 4y ago
>There'll be plenty of people willing to work for cheap for Musk Is this true? I buy that there are plenty of people willing to work on Tesla or SpaceX or even things like hyperloop. But do people have the same passion for Twitter?
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Musk seems to have a reality-distortion field like Jobs did. I absolutely know people who heard him talk about "The X App" and would quickly jump ship to work for him. I don't understand it at all, but he does seem to command this sort of following.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  There are definitely some Elon Musk fanboys out there. They're just not on HN. What's kind of annoying is that as a Tesla owner, many people assume I'm an Elon fanboy. Nah, I don't really like him. I applaud his ability to take risks, but I wish he'd shut the hell up sometimes.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    I think most of the fanboys like him for his personality, and don't actually have any relevant technical skills. They commonly think building your own PC(literally, plugging things into the only slot they will fit into) is the pinnacle of tech geekiness.
- vidarh 4y ago
  Even as someone who finds Musk really unpalatable at this point, if I thought I had a skill that was a good fit at SpaceX I might be tempted, but Twitter? I'd rather contribute to Mastodon or another Fediverse project. Not because I hate Twitter - I spend a lot of time on Twitter - but because I don't see it as an interesting enough or worthwhile challenge before Musk. After his takeover I wouldn't even consider it, so I think you're right to question this. Of course he'll find someone, but whether it'll be the right people is another matter.
cleandreams 4y ago
What is the low hanging fruit in terms of changing the product? Can there be different 'streams' of twitter users? Moderation ala reddit? How will light touch moderation actually work given the garbage that will rise to the surface (child porn, beheading videos) that will kill advertising?
whateveracct 4y ago
Elon doesn't understand that software companies aren't about the tech but the people. Wouldn't be surprised if Twitter loses some 9s & other quality and a competitor eats their lunch with a clone. Reminds me of the death of Digg.
- adammarples 4y ago
  Isn't Jack Dorsey already launching a clone? Blue-sky or something
mullingitover 4y ago
I know we’re averse to unions in this industry, but if there was ever a time and place for a tech engineering union it’s right now at Twitter.

21 points by joeatwork 4y ago

Not only this, but he's demanding people work 12+ hour days through weekends or get fired "for cause". He's doing everything he can to make layoffs happen without actually laying people off, which sure seems like he's trying to evade California's 60 day warning for layoffs. I suspect we'll see him in court over how this was handled.

spacemadness 4y ago
I guess the question is, what are the limits on how you treat existing employees to avoid laws regarding layoffs by forcing a mass exodus?
- xsmasher 4y ago
  When it crosses the line into "constructive dismissal" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_States_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal#United_...
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  Up to but not including "constructive dismissal". The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission(EEOC) provides a three part test to evaluate constructive dismissal[1]: 1. a reasonable person in the complainant's position would have found the working conditions intolerable 2. conduct that constituted discrimination against the complainant created the intolerable working conditions 3. the complainant's involuntary resignation resulted from the intolerable working conditions The test isn't necessarily something we would be able to make a definitive decision on here. It is intended to be used in the courtroom where each component would be necessary to establish constructive dismissal and evidence for and contrary to each point would be presented to a judge/jury. As you can rightly assume "reasonable", "intolerable", and "discrimination" are doing a lot of heavy lifting, and I'd expect and decision to rest on what constitutes "reasonable", "intolerable", and "discrimination". 1. https://federalemployeelawblog.com/2017/07/10/constructive-discharge-for-federal-employees/ https://federalemployeelawblog.com/2017/07/10/constructive-d...
_wolfie_ 4y ago
> Not only this, but he's demanding people work 12+ hour days through weekends or get fired "for cause". Question from Europe: Is that actually legal in the US? :-O
- hprotagonist 4y ago
  no, but do you have the funds to prove the point?
  - Volundr 4y ago
    The department of labor does. Even here in Idaho it's amazing how excited the legal team gets when sent a letter of inquiry from the DoL. I imagine they have more teeth in CA.
- marstall 4y ago
  possibly not - but we're all so brainwashed it wouldn't occur to us to question it ... work hard play hard!
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Yes. The set of conditions that make it illegal to fire somebody in the US are very very small. "I need everybody to crunch 80 hour weeks for months and months" is a thing employers can do for most forms of white collar knowledge work.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- klyrs 4y ago
  There's already a class action suit underway regarding Tesla's mass constructive dismissal, so it'll be really interesting to see all this go down. In the US, there are two things to consider: legality, and lawsuits. Regardless of legality, you can still drown in lawsuits.

lightmyst 4y ago

He's mentioned several times that him expecting his employees to work 10-12 hours a day is ok because he himself works 18+ hours. How does he expect to retain employees when other companies pay way more than Tesla does for way fewer work hours? Am I missing something?

bogantech 4y ago
All those companies have hiring freezes and layoffs going on at the moment
- beardyw 4y ago
  And Twitter doesn't?
  - ergocoder 4y ago
    Twitter does, but the point is: there is no where to go. They are stuck.
tablespoon 4y ago
> How does he expect to retain employees when other companies pay way more than Tesla does for way fewer work hours? Am I missing something? Cults? At least for Telsa and SpaceX, his propaganda (PR) efforts have established some grand "for the good of humanity" narratives," for the companies, and passionate true-believers are easily exploited.
UncleMeat 4y ago
It is just so hard to believe that the man is working 18 hour days given how much time he spends pulling stupid fucking stunts.
- bananapub 4y ago
  I am completely certain he considers "posting on twitter" etc to be "work", even before he started the Twitter acquisition game.

kweingar 4y ago

Elon has a fascinating ability to make people look at things from his point of view. Suppose the story was something like “Jeff Bezos acquires company, immediately slashes workforce, maneuvers to avoid paying severance, reportedly forces engineers to work nights and weekends under threat of dismissal (and probably will lay them off anyway).” The tech community would be pretty united in saying the engineers would have to take care of themselves first in this situation. But when it comes to Musk, the community is more amenable to looking at it from a business perspective. I have seen a sentiment of “tough shit, if you don’t like it then quit, he has no obligation to you.” There are many who call the engineers entitled or otherwise resent them for pursuing a strategy of “weather the storm until assured of some kind of severance and then immediately quit.” Hackers are a community that rail against upper management for being out of touch and implementing stupid processes, but when it comes to Musk allegedly telling engineers to print their code on paper, some say “well that’s not too much effort, plus you’re being paid to do what management asks, so don’t whine about it.”

jmeister 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference... Hackers may have even more contempt for the slackers and sanctimonious activists currently at Twitter. This is just like the far-left and the far-right aligning with Russia, because they loathe their immediate opposition so much.
- kweingar 4y ago
  Ahh, this makes sense to me. I have been accused of looking at this entirely through the lens of hating Musk, but I imagine that many are looking at this entirely through the lens of hating Twitter. Pretty short-sighted imo. My opinion about new leadership forcing engineers to work nights and weekends is entirely unaffected by the company’s former PR strategy for handling culture war issues.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    > through the lens of hating Musk, but I imagine that many are looking at this entirely through the lens of hating Twitter. The "internet of beefs" is very real. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2020/01/16/the-internet-of-beefs/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2020/01/16/the-internet-of-beefs/ (not a Rao supporter, but this essay is so spot on at describing the phenomenon)

Imnimo 4y ago

>There'll be plenty of people willing to work for cheap for Musk Is this true? I buy that there are plenty of people willing to work on Tesla or SpaceX or even things like hyperloop. But do people have the same passion for Twitter?

UncleMeat 4y ago
Musk seems to have a reality-distortion field like Jobs did. I absolutely know people who heard him talk about "The X App" and would quickly jump ship to work for him. I don't understand it at all, but he does seem to command this sort of following.
Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
There are definitely some Elon Musk fanboys out there. They're just not on HN. What's kind of annoying is that as a Tesla owner, many people assume I'm an Elon fanboy. Nah, I don't really like him. I applaud his ability to take risks, but I wish he'd shut the hell up sometimes.
- googlryas 4y ago
  I think most of the fanboys like him for his personality, and don't actually have any relevant technical skills. They commonly think building your own PC(literally, plugging things into the only slot they will fit into) is the pinnacle of tech geekiness.
vidarh 4y ago
Even as someone who finds Musk really unpalatable at this point, if I thought I had a skill that was a good fit at SpaceX I might be tempted, but Twitter? I'd rather contribute to Mastodon or another Fediverse project. Not because I hate Twitter - I spend a lot of time on Twitter - but because I don't see it as an interesting enough or worthwhile challenge before Musk. After his takeover I wouldn't even consider it, so I think you're right to question this. Of course he'll find someone, but whether it'll be the right people is another matter.

cleandreams 4y ago

What is the low hanging fruit in terms of changing the product? Can there be different 'streams' of twitter users? Moderation ala reddit? How will light touch moderation actually work given the garbage that will rise to the surface (child porn, beheading videos) that will kill advertising?

whateveracct 4y ago

Elon doesn't understand that software companies aren't about the tech but the people. Wouldn't be surprised if Twitter loses some 9s & other quality and a competitor eats their lunch with a clone. Reminds me of the death of Digg.

adammarples 4y ago
Isn't Jack Dorsey already launching a clone? Blue-sky or something

mullingitover 4y ago

I know we’re averse to unions in this industry, but if there was ever a time and place for a tech engineering union it’s right now at Twitter.