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It seems that Elon thinks that there are too many managers (per coder) there https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586686935518498816 https://twitter.com/elonmu

It seems that Elon thinks that there are too many managers (per coder) there https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586686935518498816 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586686935518498816

ibrarmalik 4y ago
Its a good narrative to have as you prepare for layoffs.
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
At least in a dev situation I think 10-1 devs-to-managers is actually a pretty sizable ratio - I think ideally it's more of a 6-to-8ish to one. Now, this of course assumes that engineering managers are not solely doing employee management but also are serving some "tech lead" type roles. I.e. even if an engineering manager isn't coding I think it's essential that (a) a considerable portion of their time is spent doing code reviews, (b) they should be working closely with product managers to define stories and requirements before the dev team starts implementing, etc. That is, having line engineering managers solely do "people management" is universally a bad idea in my opinion. They should be getting their "hands dirty" in the tech aspects as well in order to be effective.
- jiveturkey 4y ago
  You read it backwards. He claimed 10-1 managers-to-devs.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    Yikes, I did read it wrong! OK, that would be insane, but I'm still curious if (a) that's not a pretty gross exaggeration or (b) if there some sort of job titling that's making the ratios look weird, e.g. "product manager" doesn't actually manage any people, or the way everyone who works in a bank is a "VP".
    - jiveturkey 4y ago
      obvious hyperbole, for the sake of his audience
  - chasd00 4y ago
    "manager" can be subjective. You could claim a non-junior dev with a couple junior dev reporting to them and being mentored is a "manager".
    - dbish 4y ago
      That’s not subjective. That is a manager. If someone reports to you and you are responsible for them, you’re their manager, regardless of job title. Subjective is if he’s counting program/product managers, account managers, etc.
- bigmattystyles 4y ago
  Isn't this another version of Chesterton's fence - lots of people may seem like they serve no apparent role, until they are gone. This is not to say there aren't some that in fact do serve no role, but careful consideration is required to determine who is who imho.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Sometimes those people change the work processes in a way to make their role important.. Need printer paper? You have to go through the old lady in the 3rd floor office, because noone else can order, store or give out office supplies, not even the office next door, where you can get ethernet cables and headsets.
- watwut 4y ago
  Person who is not coding should not do code reviews.
mcguire 4y ago
Are you taking something Elon Musk said seriously?
- themitigating 4y ago
  Remember when he said he would buy Twitter? What a lark!
  - pcbro141 4y ago
    Well he did basically have to be forced to actually buy it.
klpassv 4y ago
10 managers per coder seems a bit extreme. However, 3 managers, 7 "coders" engaging in social justice and one workhorse coder is entirely realistic. I doubt though that Musk can figure out the actual workhorse in a short time. The posers are very good at self promotion. Weeding out those who change pronouns in documentation and agitate on Slack would be a reliable start. From there, close reading of PRs, their usefulness and code quality is required. LOC is not an indicator. As for managers, most of them are useless.

It seems that Elon thinks that there are too many managers (per coder) there https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586686935518498816 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586686935518498816

ibrarmalik 4y ago

Its a good narrative to have as you prepare for layoffs.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

At least in a dev situation I think 10-1 devs-to-managers is actually a pretty sizable ratio - I think ideally it's more of a 6-to-8ish to one. Now, this of course assumes that engineering managers are not solely doing employee management but also are serving some "tech lead" type roles. I.e. even if an engineering manager isn't coding I think it's essential that (a) a considerable portion of their time is spent doing code reviews, (b) they should be working closely with product managers to define stories and requirements before the dev team starts implementing, etc. That is, having line engineering managers solely do "people management" is universally a bad idea in my opinion. They should be getting their "hands dirty" in the tech aspects as well in order to be effective.

jiveturkey 4y ago
You read it backwards. He claimed 10-1 managers-to-devs.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  Yikes, I did read it wrong! OK, that would be insane, but I'm still curious if (a) that's not a pretty gross exaggeration or (b) if there some sort of job titling that's making the ratios look weird, e.g. "product manager" doesn't actually manage any people, or the way everyone who works in a bank is a "VP".
  - jiveturkey 4y ago
    obvious hyperbole, for the sake of his audience
- chasd00 4y ago
  "manager" can be subjective. You could claim a non-junior dev with a couple junior dev reporting to them and being mentored is a "manager".
  - dbish 4y ago
    That’s not subjective. That is a manager. If someone reports to you and you are responsible for them, you’re their manager, regardless of job title. Subjective is if he’s counting program/product managers, account managers, etc.
bigmattystyles 4y ago
Isn't this another version of Chesterton's fence - lots of people may seem like they serve no apparent role, until they are gone. This is not to say there aren't some that in fact do serve no role, but careful consideration is required to determine who is who imho.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Sometimes those people change the work processes in a way to make their role important.. Need printer paper? You have to go through the old lady in the 3rd floor office, because noone else can order, store or give out office supplies, not even the office next door, where you can get ethernet cables and headsets.
watwut 4y ago
Person who is not coding should not do code reviews.

mcguire 4y ago

Are you taking something Elon Musk said seriously?

themitigating 4y ago
Remember when he said he would buy Twitter? What a lark!
- pcbro141 4y ago
  Well he did basically have to be forced to actually buy it.

klpassv 4y ago

10 managers per coder seems a bit extreme. However, 3 managers, 7 "coders" engaging in social justice and one workhorse coder is entirely realistic. I doubt though that Musk can figure out the actual workhorse in a short time. The posers are very good at self promotion. Weeding out those who change pronouns in documentation and agitate on Slack would be a reliable start. From there, close reading of PRs, their usefulness and code quality is required. LOC is not an indicator. As for managers, most of them are useless.