7 ms·

During Covid, people were hiding in their homes, quarantined, with nothing to do but work. This year, companies expect workers to return to office, despite lit

by ep103 4y ago

During Covid, people were hiding in their homes, quarantined, with nothing to do but work. This year, companies expect workers to return to office, despite little change in conditions, except now we have to deal with all of the above issues you've just mentioned, AND the fact that employees have now proven they can work remotely perfectly well. It should neither be surprising that in a system where healthcare is tied to employment, that productivity jumped while people were locking themselves in their houses from a plague, or that productivity dropped afterwards, or that it might drop given the complete callousness of our current system.

cestith 4y ago
All of what you've both said, plus the number of people who thought or still think COVID-19 is "no big deal" who now have a pulmonary deficiency and long-term mental fog.
- AnthonBerg 4y ago
  Indeed. In support of this—part of it!—here’s one paper of many: “The Neurobiology of Long COVID” by M. Monje, neurobiologist at Stanford, and A. Iwasaki, immunologist at Yale. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2022.10.006 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2022.10.006 People with measurable neurobiological issues will show a measurable productivity drop.
  - Animats 4y ago
    Prevalence of "Long COVID" is hard to measure at this point, but based on symptom reporting, about 15% of people who test positive for COVID have some symptoms more than 2 months later.[1] More data is available for people who have had heart and brain MRI scans, which show inflammation. It may be possible to diagnose this with a special eye exam that detects inflammation in the eye's blood vessels. The tests are still very experimental, but there are objective measures of damage. [1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2797782 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
    - AnthonBerg 4y ago
      In support of this, I want to mention that there are known and measurable biomarkers that connect reported symptoms to undeniable physical symptoms. Low cortisol is very common. That’s just one example. With low cortisol it’s hard to feel good or function 100%. One paper of many that show this kind of relationship (a preprint): “Distinguishing features of Long COVID identified through immune profiling” — https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.08.09.22278592 https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.08.09.22278592 It’s also important to note that there was a study that seemed to show that Long COVID was just anxiety or in people’s imagination. Because people who said they had Long COVID didn’t have SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. The thing is that not everybody seroconverts. Not everybody actually produces antibodies after infection; We simply can’t exclude Long COVID diagnoses based on looking at those particular antibodies. So that study can’t show what it has been said to show. (I can provide sources for this but am out of time. It’s on my honor.)
      - ep103 4y ago
        The best explanation I've seen thus far, assuming there aren't other complicating factors (which there often are) is that the immune system stays hyperactive in some people after infection. This causes excess production of IL-6 and IL-10, which in turn causes something called the kynurenine shunt. That in turn results in lowered central serotonin rates in the brain and heightened glutamate. This off balance results in lowered dopamine as the production of serotonin and dopamine are comingled. Dopamine usually breaks down to your typical epinephrine and norepinephrine levels. But since dopamine is at a lowered state, you get less epinephrine and norepinephrine. I'm guessing, but do not know the pathway, that lowered epinephrine and norepinephrine explain the lowered cortisol. Either way, the treatment should be the same. Take a corticosteroid to lower the IL6 & 10 levels, ensure the patient is getting proper sleep and nutrients, and not doing anything to exacerbate lowered serotonin/dopamine levels, and cross your fingers. I've started to hear of companies that are testing for elevated cytokines as a proof of long covid, and my family member's hospital has started educating their staff on cytokine release syndrome in the rare patient who has a reaction to a vaccine shot, both of which, for me, imply the industry might be moving in this direction for explanation. fingers crossed
- tick_tock_tick 4y ago
  I mean it's such a small percent do you really think it would show up in national data?
  - hezralig 4y ago
    What is such a small percent and where are you getting your data?
    - tick_tock_tick 4y ago
      "Long COVID" and medical journals.... Even the highest estimates only have it as a very small percentage of symptomatic patients which is already a subset of the general population.
      - komali2 4y ago
        If you change it instead to be a subset of the working age population, does the percentage look higher?
      - cestith 4y ago
        I've been reading it's 10 to 20% of people who test positive have symptoms at least a month, and as much as 5 to 7% three to six months later. The US workforce is around 160 million people. About 60% of the population is estimated to have had SARS-Cov-2 at least once. 60% of 160 million is 96 million. So 5% of that is 4.6 million people or so with at least a solid portion of a year of symptoms. There's mounting evidence that some of the damage could take years to recover or even be lifelong. The current word from the Mayo Clinic is about 20% of folks have what they're calling Post-COVID Syndrome between one month and one year after an infection, with at least one symptom likely from the viral infection. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i... If we look at 20% of 60% of the workforce that's around 19 million people symptomatic for over a month after the initial positive test. Twelve percent, almost one in eight people in the workplace.
- baxtr 4y ago
  The difficult part of it is: for some people it is literally nothing. We had it now for the fourth time since 2020 even though we’re properly vaccinated and careful as much as life permits. It’s a bit worse than a cold but much better for than the flu. So, yes, for us life just goes on with COVID. No need to change anything.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    That is a problem. It's a dice roll each time a person is infected depending on a huge number of factors including what strain they've been hit with. Reinfections can give worse odds each time. People who got lucky once or twice before might be more careless thinking their luck will continue and end up screwing themselves. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220707/each-covid-19-reinfection-increases-health-risks https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220707/each-covid-19-reinf...
    - Animats 4y ago
      "Reinfections can give worse odds each time." Not necessarily worse, but there is cumulative damage. In the UK, about 7% of COVID cases that get medical attention are now re-infections. That number increases with time; it was only 4% last February. Immunity from getting COVID is time-limited and not that long. One study said "time between reinfections ranged from 90 to 650 days, with the average being 343 days". Over a decade, this might gradually debilitate most of the population.
      - autoexec 4y ago
        I'm hoping that over the coming decade we get better defenses. Improved vaccines, treatments, and a greater understanding of the virus could prevent a lot of that harm. It hasn't been long enough to see what the long term consequences of infections or even our vaccines and current treatments will be for that matter, but I'll stay up to date on vaccines and continue taking sensible precautions against catching or spreading the virus. It's the best I can do to help my odds given what we know currently.
  - AnthonBerg 4y ago
- krater23 4y ago
  I everytime sayd it's not a big deal. Got my vaccine as it was ready but don't done anything else to don't get it. Now it's 2022, never had COVID, or maybee I don't noticed it. So, yes, not a big deal for me.
  - joebob42 4y ago
    I'm not 100% sure if this is satire but it brought me joy.
- propogandist 4y ago
  good thing there's the safe and effective vaccine tested on mice and N number of boosters.
lupire 4y ago
HN aside, most people don't have jobs that you can do more of at home than at the office / factory / lab / school. Heck, with school it's quite obvious that "teaching hours delivered" sustained during pandemic, but "education learned" dropped by probably half.

by ep103 4y ago

cestith 4y ago

All of what you've both said, plus the number of people who thought or still think COVID-19 is "no big deal" who now have a pulmonary deficiency and long-term mental fog.

AnthonBerg 4y ago
Indeed. In support of this—part of it!—here’s one paper of many: “The Neurobiology of Long COVID” by M. Monje, neurobiologist at Stanford, and A. Iwasaki, immunologist at Yale. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2022.10.006 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2022.10.006 People with measurable neurobiological issues will show a measurable productivity drop.
- Animats 4y ago
  Prevalence of "Long COVID" is hard to measure at this point, but based on symptom reporting, about 15% of people who test positive for COVID have some symptoms more than 2 months later.[1] More data is available for people who have had heart and brain MRI scans, which show inflammation. It may be possible to diagnose this with a special eye exam that detects inflammation in the eye's blood vessels. The tests are still very experimental, but there are objective measures of damage. [1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2797782 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
  - AnthonBerg 4y ago
    In support of this, I want to mention that there are known and measurable biomarkers that connect reported symptoms to undeniable physical symptoms. Low cortisol is very common. That’s just one example. With low cortisol it’s hard to feel good or function 100%. One paper of many that show this kind of relationship (a preprint): “Distinguishing features of Long COVID identified through immune profiling” — https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.08.09.22278592 https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.08.09.22278592 It’s also important to note that there was a study that seemed to show that Long COVID was just anxiety or in people’s imagination. Because people who said they had Long COVID didn’t have SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. The thing is that not everybody seroconverts. Not everybody actually produces antibodies after infection; We simply can’t exclude Long COVID diagnoses based on looking at those particular antibodies. So that study can’t show what it has been said to show. (I can provide sources for this but am out of time. It’s on my honor.)
    - ep103 4y ago
      The best explanation I've seen thus far, assuming there aren't other complicating factors (which there often are) is that the immune system stays hyperactive in some people after infection. This causes excess production of IL-6 and IL-10, which in turn causes something called the kynurenine shunt. That in turn results in lowered central serotonin rates in the brain and heightened glutamate. This off balance results in lowered dopamine as the production of serotonin and dopamine are comingled. Dopamine usually breaks down to your typical epinephrine and norepinephrine levels. But since dopamine is at a lowered state, you get less epinephrine and norepinephrine. I'm guessing, but do not know the pathway, that lowered epinephrine and norepinephrine explain the lowered cortisol. Either way, the treatment should be the same. Take a corticosteroid to lower the IL6 & 10 levels, ensure the patient is getting proper sleep and nutrients, and not doing anything to exacerbate lowered serotonin/dopamine levels, and cross your fingers. I've started to hear of companies that are testing for elevated cytokines as a proof of long covid, and my family member's hospital has started educating their staff on cytokine release syndrome in the rare patient who has a reaction to a vaccine shot, both of which, for me, imply the industry might be moving in this direction for explanation. fingers crossed
tick_tock_tick 4y ago
I mean it's such a small percent do you really think it would show up in national data?
- hezralig 4y ago
  What is such a small percent and where are you getting your data?
  - tick_tock_tick 4y ago
    "Long COVID" and medical journals.... Even the highest estimates only have it as a very small percentage of symptomatic patients which is already a subset of the general population.
    - komali2 4y ago
      If you change it instead to be a subset of the working age population, does the percentage look higher?
    - cestith 4y ago
      I've been reading it's 10 to 20% of people who test positive have symptoms at least a month, and as much as 5 to 7% three to six months later. The US workforce is around 160 million people. About 60% of the population is estimated to have had SARS-Cov-2 at least once. 60% of 160 million is 96 million. So 5% of that is 4.6 million people or so with at least a solid portion of a year of symptoms. There's mounting evidence that some of the damage could take years to recover or even be lifelong. The current word from the Mayo Clinic is about 20% of folks have what they're calling Post-COVID Syndrome between one month and one year after an infection, with at least one symptom likely from the viral infection. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i... If we look at 20% of 60% of the workforce that's around 19 million people symptomatic for over a month after the initial positive test. Twelve percent, almost one in eight people in the workplace.
baxtr 4y ago
The difficult part of it is: for some people it is literally nothing. We had it now for the fourth time since 2020 even though we’re properly vaccinated and careful as much as life permits. It’s a bit worse than a cold but much better for than the flu. So, yes, for us life just goes on with COVID. No need to change anything.
- autoexec 4y ago
  That is a problem. It's a dice roll each time a person is infected depending on a huge number of factors including what strain they've been hit with. Reinfections can give worse odds each time. People who got lucky once or twice before might be more careless thinking their luck will continue and end up screwing themselves. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220707/each-covid-19-reinfection-increases-health-risks https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220707/each-covid-19-reinf...
  - Animats 4y ago
    "Reinfections can give worse odds each time." Not necessarily worse, but there is cumulative damage. In the UK, about 7% of COVID cases that get medical attention are now re-infections. That number increases with time; it was only 4% last February. Immunity from getting COVID is time-limited and not that long. One study said "time between reinfections ranged from 90 to 650 days, with the average being 343 days". Over a decade, this might gradually debilitate most of the population.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      I'm hoping that over the coming decade we get better defenses. Improved vaccines, treatments, and a greater understanding of the virus could prevent a lot of that harm. It hasn't been long enough to see what the long term consequences of infections or even our vaccines and current treatments will be for that matter, but I'll stay up to date on vaccines and continue taking sensible precautions against catching or spreading the virus. It's the best I can do to help my odds given what we know currently.
- AnthonBerg 4y ago
krater23 4y ago
I everytime sayd it's not a big deal. Got my vaccine as it was ready but don't done anything else to don't get it. Now it's 2022, never had COVID, or maybee I don't noticed it. So, yes, not a big deal for me.
- joebob42 4y ago
  I'm not 100% sure if this is satire but it brought me joy.
propogandist 4y ago
good thing there's the safe and effective vaccine tested on mice and N number of boosters.

lupire 4y ago

HN aside, most people don't have jobs that you can do more of at home than at the office / factory / lab / school. Heck, with school it's quite obvious that "teaching hours delivered" sustained during pandemic, but "education learned" dropped by probably half.