6 ms·

My dad has a Chevy Silverado 3500, and he hates it for this reason. Every time the machine has a minor breakdown (which happens once in a while) and the ECU de

My dad has a Chevy Silverado 3500, and he hates it for this reason. Every time the machine has a minor breakdown (which happens once in a while) and the ECU detects that it isn't quite as efficient as it should be, it will immediately and completely mercilessly lock your vehicle to 35 miles per hour. Doesn't matter if you drove from Minnesota to California to pick up a heavy delivery in person - you are coming home at 35 MPH, the entire way, unless you stop at a shop on the way for potentially days to get it fixed. And as for what could trigger that, it could be anything. Once a sensor went bad on the emissions filter. It was just one sensor of many - not the actual emissions system. It tripped the 35 MPH lock, and the only way to fix it was to replace the sensor, which required taking the entire freaking back axle off. It was almost an entire day's job for the diesel mechanic. Imagine if you were a small business owner, multiple states away from home, when this happened. That is crushing and instills complete and utter contempt for emissions standards and those who make them very, very quickly. And then we wonder why some people hate EVs, love "rolling coal", and dispute climate change. If that happened to you, I could see very quickly why you'd join the haters club.

shagie 4y ago
You generally have the right to repair cars now... though the penalties for violating the clean air act are rather hefty. I'll also point to Illegal Tampering by Diesel Pickup Owners Is Worsening Pollution, E.P.A. Says https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/climate/diesel-trucks-air-pollution.html?unlocked_article_code=yWbwhRrwfMtCaYHJYqJ7vTt7q696tEKv2XQq5XZJAyf03CWFMs-wEdvIU-4YTVg5PgakNf8n086TK_P0uKB9uFNCGBg-NCrKOMpSe6d8AY00tJ4KaGQMNmrzrcX6rpNPXrg7aejU1V8aWRg4J5HGDkIDcjrxx_KWV94UMcXzdRgvpXu9Pc8BBmsKwDBaq8gNX6WNOzFtH4eXrCybGHKQEbgkNJZJTtZUNWDz6K4aprmDuZBf7xrIMVpdR9hN5-kgewR91-RrkUMbhZCsPp7NgpThOes5t-DeyxmchIkGoAHwXQ-3Y6E2r3t8XvwcDPKV3DnUtIxzREopYxW5pMqybYiJeQnk&smid=share-url https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/climate/diesel-trucks-air... This gets to some of the "why" that the right to repair gets into trouble - that people will "repair" it to violate other laws either knowingly or unknowingly. Note that the 1990 clean air act required that car makers provide this information to independent shops. I furthermore, consider the "hate EVs" because of emissions standards for diesel vehicles to be completely irrational.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  > I furthermore, consider the "hate EVs" because of emissions standards for diesel vehicles to be completely irrational. It's easy to waive your hands and call it irrational when it has never happened to you. If you want to experience the potential consequences for yourself, I dare you to drive from NY to LA (~2800 miles), while never exceeding 35 Miles Per Hour. Not once. Never. Enjoy the trip - you'll be almost entirely on backroads the whole way. That is the potential consequence (taken to an extreme) that Diesel truck owners live with, every day, because of emissions. Irrational? I'd say completely rational - it's ridiculous to have that sword hanging over your head, that a sensor will just blow and you're stuck. If it happens to you, you want to rip the arms off any politician in the area. Edit: As for the New York Times article, imagine if you are a business owner, delivering a product a few states away, or even just a few hundred miles. My dad, if it was not illegal, would have immediately went and did exactly as that article described, because that would guarantee that can't happen, which is important because he can't afford for that to happen. This isn't because my dad is heartless towards the environment - he'd pay $25 or $50 for a day-long emissions exemption (donated to, say, CO2 capture) to the 35MPH limit so he could rest assured that he has a quick way out if something goes wrong and he won't be trapped in the middle of nowhere.
  - shagie 4y ago
    From the post: > And then we wonder why some people hate EVs I consider that irrational. The issues with difficulty to repair the emissions systems on diesel vehicles should be something to complain to the vehicle manufacture - not the clean air act itself just as the ire of "can't fix a phone" should be focused on Apple rather than people who use a dumb phone or have a pine phone.
    - gjsman-1000 4y ago
      This is not a good argument if you have watched diesel truck progression. Even if it was easier to repair, the emissions standards are what partly caused this design mess in the first place, as they were the only reasonable way to meet the standard (all diesel trucks right now are suffering design issues like this), so it absolutely takes blame. Diesel trucks were only designed like this because of the emissions standards. Imagine a legislature mandated that all smartphones must be watertight to 200 meters deep, no exceptions. They must also be no thicker than 1/4" of an inch, no exceptions. And then if, for example, all the smartphone makers used adhesive instead of screws to do that. Your argument is that the smartphone markers are to blame for the adhesive, not the legislature. I would argue that it really is the legislature's fault. Edit @scratcheee: I would first look over how much damage the vehicle actually causes the environment and whether the standards are reasonable. Look up Leaf Blowers vs Diesel emissions for example - it's really ugly how unfairly biased towards Leaf Blowers and other small engines the emissions standards are. They can have absolutely absurd emissions by comparison without any restriction. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/25/opinion/leaf-blowers-california-emissions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/25/opinion/leaf-blowers-cali...) (This is another reason why, if your vehicle was shut down due to emissions, knowing that a leaf blower is doing more damage is even more infuriating and destroys credibility and faith in the standards.) After that, assuming that the standards aren't moving downward, I would have a self-service daily exemption system. Basically, send $25 or so to some complaint CO2 capture or similar organization, get a code, punch code into truck, get exception for the whole day. Obviously this adds up ($500+ a month assuming normal weekdays), incentive enough to get it fixed soon. My dad would be the kind of person who would be greatly relieved - because modding your truck to ignore emissions is awfully tempting whenever planning a long road trip. Just knowing you wouldn't be stranded if something went wrong is enough to kill the temptation. Edit @lcnPylGDnU4H9OF: Neither myself, nor my dad, bear ill-will towards EVs. Any ill-will towards them is your misinterpretation of the argument. We are, however, arguing that the stringent and very flawed enforcement of emissions standards undermines the credibility of all emissions standards, as well as faith in EVs and other marketed-as-environmentally-friendly solutions. And that, therefore, blame can be shared both ways when we see people opposed to EVs and stricter emissions standards.
JAlexoid 4y ago
"Funny" though. EVs have less moving parts, than any ICE vehicle. And brushless motor control isn't a complex issue at all(if your EV has brushless motors, that is). If your EV had traditional brushed motor(s) - then it's even easier. The opposition to EV is beyond stupid at this point.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  Can an EV tow 10,100 pounds? A maxed-out F150 Lightning can, in theory. The maxed-out F150 Lightning is also more expensive; has way, way less range when towing at capacity; and takes longer to refuel. In independent towing tests, a fully-loaded F150 Lightning Platinum with maxed-out towing capacity, which is inferior to the 3500 by a few hundred pounds, could not even go 100 miles. It also takes 1.5 hours to charge at 440V, 14 hours to charge at 220V. At best, you would spend equal amounts of time charging as towing, which would be absurd (assuming you can always find a 440V charger). I rest my case. It's like saying you don't need a Core i7 for rendering because you can survive with a Core i3. Sometimes you need a Core i7 - and you'd like your Core i7 to not randomly go slower than a Pentium if it detects its drawing too much power, right? Edit: Removed 7700 F-150 Lightning limit, that was base model.
  - JTbane 4y ago
    I'd wager very few pickup owners tow anything- around here they are all mall crawlers.
    - bsagdiyev 4y ago
      That doesn't invalidate anything. Most around here haul stuff and actually use them.
    - freedomben 4y ago
      Why is that relevant? Do the people who actually need to tow no longer matter because some people don't?
    - StillBored 4y ago
lrvick 4y ago
This is exactly why no matter how much money I make I still choose motorcycles or old used cars that have no network connectivity, no DRM, do what I tell them, and are easy to acquire parts for. It does not seem possible to own most modern vehicles.
themitigating 4y ago
I don't see how the inability of your dad to repair his truck has anything to do with this reaction " And then we wonder why some people hate EVs, love "rolling coal", and dispute climate change. If that happened to you, I could see very quickly why you'd join the haters club." 1.If this is a form of protest it's not working because when environmentists see a truck rolling coal they only want more regulation and enforcement. If it's a protest it's not clear because an alternative explanation could be that the people driving lifted trucks and rolling coal just want to be dicks/annoy people. It's like if I was angry at a bank so i littered at their branches 2. EVs have the same issues with right to repair so why would you hate them? Again similar issues as 1 3. Climate change is occurring and disputing it because you are upset about "limp mode" also doesn't make sense. Who is going to connect these two situations.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  I never said it was my reaction or his, or that I hate EVs (if you read again) - I'm saying that if that "limp mode" happened, to a business owner or someone dependent on their vehicle, I can fully understand why they would start to view the entire environmental movement and everything tied to it as full of BS. It's a reaction (partly rational) caused from how upsetting that event is. > It's like if I was angry at a bank so i littered at their branches Sometimes, if you are angry enough, you protest in the only way that you know of, regardless of how rational it is. No policymaker is going to listen to your concerns, valid though they may be. What else are you going to do? Shut up and take it? I would hope that when we see people who oppose EVs, and "roll coal," that would be a sign for us to ask how they got there, instead of assuming they are idiots.
  - neon_electro 4y ago
    But why are you taking your (justified) anger about poorly designed emissions controls systems on fans of EVs?
  - themitigating 4y ago
    I'm sorry about tying the behavior to your dad, you mentioned him then switched to discussing why others act a certain way. I didn't read your comment carefully enough The limp mode is not specifically tied to environmental controls. It also happens for high temperature in diffs, transmissions, etc. It protects components. As to a rolling coal protest, people do this to also just be jerks. Basically inflammatory behavior never works as a protest. Politicians are already aware that people don't care about the environment and or hate emissions devices on vehicles. Rolling coal is such an immature junvinile behavior, especially when people target vehicles. Imagine if someone has breathing issues and their car interior is flooded with poorly combusted diesel fumes. It's why whenever I see a lifted truck I just assume the person is an asshole. Should I go up and ask them? What do you think would happen? They would think I'm attacking and judging them and I'm sure their response wouldn't be useful

shagie 4y ago

You generally have the right to repair cars now... though the penalties for violating the clean air act are rather hefty. I'll also point to Illegal Tampering by Diesel Pickup Owners Is Worsening Pollution, E.P.A. Says https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/climate/diesel-trucks-air-pollution.html?unlocked_article_code=yWbwhRrwfMtCaYHJYqJ7vTt7q696tEKv2XQq5XZJAyf03CWFMs-wEdvIU-4YTVg5PgakNf8n086TK_P0uKB9uFNCGBg-NCrKOMpSe6d8AY00tJ4KaGQMNmrzrcX6rpNPXrg7aejU1V8aWRg4J5HGDkIDcjrxx_KWV94UMcXzdRgvpXu9Pc8BBmsKwDBaq8gNX6WNOzFtH4eXrCybGHKQEbgkNJZJTtZUNWDz6K4aprmDuZBf7xrIMVpdR9hN5-kgewR91-RrkUMbhZCsPp7NgpThOes5t-DeyxmchIkGoAHwXQ-3Y6E2r3t8XvwcDPKV3DnUtIxzREopYxW5pMqybYiJeQnk&smid=share-url https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/climate/diesel-trucks-air... This gets to some of the "why" that the right to repair gets into trouble - that people will "repair" it to violate other laws either knowingly or unknowingly. Note that the 1990 clean air act required that car makers provide this information to independent shops. I furthermore, consider the "hate EVs" because of emissions standards for diesel vehicles to be completely irrational.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
> I furthermore, consider the "hate EVs" because of emissions standards for diesel vehicles to be completely irrational. It's easy to waive your hands and call it irrational when it has never happened to you. If you want to experience the potential consequences for yourself, I dare you to drive from NY to LA (~2800 miles), while never exceeding 35 Miles Per Hour. Not once. Never. Enjoy the trip - you'll be almost entirely on backroads the whole way. That is the potential consequence (taken to an extreme) that Diesel truck owners live with, every day, because of emissions. Irrational? I'd say completely rational - it's ridiculous to have that sword hanging over your head, that a sensor will just blow and you're stuck. If it happens to you, you want to rip the arms off any politician in the area. Edit: As for the New York Times article, imagine if you are a business owner, delivering a product a few states away, or even just a few hundred miles. My dad, if it was not illegal, would have immediately went and did exactly as that article described, because that would guarantee that can't happen, which is important because he can't afford for that to happen. This isn't because my dad is heartless towards the environment - he'd pay $25 or $50 for a day-long emissions exemption (donated to, say, CO2 capture) to the 35MPH limit so he could rest assured that he has a quick way out if something goes wrong and he won't be trapped in the middle of nowhere.
- shagie 4y ago
  From the post: > And then we wonder why some people hate EVs I consider that irrational. The issues with difficulty to repair the emissions systems on diesel vehicles should be something to complain to the vehicle manufacture - not the clean air act itself just as the ire of "can't fix a phone" should be focused on Apple rather than people who use a dumb phone or have a pine phone.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    This is not a good argument if you have watched diesel truck progression. Even if it was easier to repair, the emissions standards are what partly caused this design mess in the first place, as they were the only reasonable way to meet the standard (all diesel trucks right now are suffering design issues like this), so it absolutely takes blame. Diesel trucks were only designed like this because of the emissions standards. Imagine a legislature mandated that all smartphones must be watertight to 200 meters deep, no exceptions. They must also be no thicker than 1/4" of an inch, no exceptions. And then if, for example, all the smartphone makers used adhesive instead of screws to do that. Your argument is that the smartphone markers are to blame for the adhesive, not the legislature. I would argue that it really is the legislature's fault. Edit @scratcheee: I would first look over how much damage the vehicle actually causes the environment and whether the standards are reasonable. Look up Leaf Blowers vs Diesel emissions for example - it's really ugly how unfairly biased towards Leaf Blowers and other small engines the emissions standards are. They can have absolutely absurd emissions by comparison without any restriction. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/25/opinion/leaf-blowers-california-emissions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/25/opinion/leaf-blowers-cali...) (This is another reason why, if your vehicle was shut down due to emissions, knowing that a leaf blower is doing more damage is even more infuriating and destroys credibility and faith in the standards.) After that, assuming that the standards aren't moving downward, I would have a self-service daily exemption system. Basically, send $25 or so to some complaint CO2 capture or similar organization, get a code, punch code into truck, get exception for the whole day. Obviously this adds up ($500+ a month assuming normal weekdays), incentive enough to get it fixed soon. My dad would be the kind of person who would be greatly relieved - because modding your truck to ignore emissions is awfully tempting whenever planning a long road trip. Just knowing you wouldn't be stranded if something went wrong is enough to kill the temptation. Edit @lcnPylGDnU4H9OF: Neither myself, nor my dad, bear ill-will towards EVs. Any ill-will towards them is your misinterpretation of the argument. We are, however, arguing that the stringent and very flawed enforcement of emissions standards undermines the credibility of all emissions standards, as well as faith in EVs and other marketed-as-environmentally-friendly solutions. And that, therefore, blame can be shared both ways when we see people opposed to EVs and stricter emissions standards.

JAlexoid 4y ago

"Funny" though. EVs have less moving parts, than any ICE vehicle. And brushless motor control isn't a complex issue at all(if your EV has brushless motors, that is). If your EV had traditional brushed motor(s) - then it's even easier. The opposition to EV is beyond stupid at this point.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
Can an EV tow 10,100 pounds? A maxed-out F150 Lightning can, in theory. The maxed-out F150 Lightning is also more expensive; has way, way less range when towing at capacity; and takes longer to refuel. In independent towing tests, a fully-loaded F150 Lightning Platinum with maxed-out towing capacity, which is inferior to the 3500 by a few hundred pounds, could not even go 100 miles. It also takes 1.5 hours to charge at 440V, 14 hours to charge at 220V. At best, you would spend equal amounts of time charging as towing, which would be absurd (assuming you can always find a 440V charger). I rest my case. It's like saying you don't need a Core i7 for rendering because you can survive with a Core i3. Sometimes you need a Core i7 - and you'd like your Core i7 to not randomly go slower than a Pentium if it detects its drawing too much power, right? Edit: Removed 7700 F-150 Lightning limit, that was base model.
- JTbane 4y ago
  I'd wager very few pickup owners tow anything- around here they are all mall crawlers.
  - bsagdiyev 4y ago
    That doesn't invalidate anything. Most around here haul stuff and actually use them.
  - freedomben 4y ago
    Why is that relevant? Do the people who actually need to tow no longer matter because some people don't?
  - StillBored 4y ago

lrvick 4y ago

This is exactly why no matter how much money I make I still choose motorcycles or old used cars that have no network connectivity, no DRM, do what I tell them, and are easy to acquire parts for. It does not seem possible to own most modern vehicles.

themitigating 4y ago

I don't see how the inability of your dad to repair his truck has anything to do with this reaction " And then we wonder why some people hate EVs, love "rolling coal", and dispute climate change. If that happened to you, I could see very quickly why you'd join the haters club." 1.If this is a form of protest it's not working because when environmentists see a truck rolling coal they only want more regulation and enforcement. If it's a protest it's not clear because an alternative explanation could be that the people driving lifted trucks and rolling coal just want to be dicks/annoy people. It's like if I was angry at a bank so i littered at their branches 2. EVs have the same issues with right to repair so why would you hate them? Again similar issues as 1 3. Climate change is occurring and disputing it because you are upset about "limp mode" also doesn't make sense. Who is going to connect these two situations.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
I never said it was my reaction or his, or that I hate EVs (if you read again) - I'm saying that if that "limp mode" happened, to a business owner or someone dependent on their vehicle, I can fully understand why they would start to view the entire environmental movement and everything tied to it as full of BS. It's a reaction (partly rational) caused from how upsetting that event is. > It's like if I was angry at a bank so i littered at their branches Sometimes, if you are angry enough, you protest in the only way that you know of, regardless of how rational it is. No policymaker is going to listen to your concerns, valid though they may be. What else are you going to do? Shut up and take it? I would hope that when we see people who oppose EVs, and "roll coal," that would be a sign for us to ask how they got there, instead of assuming they are idiots.
- neon_electro 4y ago
  But why are you taking your (justified) anger about poorly designed emissions controls systems on fans of EVs?
- themitigating 4y ago
  I'm sorry about tying the behavior to your dad, you mentioned him then switched to discussing why others act a certain way. I didn't read your comment carefully enough The limp mode is not specifically tied to environmental controls. It also happens for high temperature in diffs, transmissions, etc. It protects components. As to a rolling coal protest, people do this to also just be jerks. Basically inflammatory behavior never works as a protest. Politicians are already aware that people don't care about the environment and or hate emissions devices on vehicles. Rolling coal is such an immature junvinile behavior, especially when people target vehicles. Imagine if someone has breathing issues and their car interior is flooded with poorly combusted diesel fumes. It's why whenever I see a lifted truck I just assume the person is an asshole. Should I go up and ask them? What do you think would happen? They would think I'm attacking and judging them and I'm sure their response wouldn't be useful