3 ms·

> " Not just for the next 10 or 20 years. But also for the next 10 thousand or 10 billion years" Lets run a mental experiment, shall we? 10 thousand years ago

> " Not just for the next 10 or 20 years. But also for the next 10 thousand or 10 billion years" Lets run a mental experiment, shall we? 10 thousand years ago we were cavemen. Imagine a caveman trying to plan what should happen today. How good would his plans be? "To ensure human survival, you should ensure Wooley Mamoth population doesn't collapse?" Okay, cavemen were uneducated you might say, too primitive to plan. Fine. Get Socrates, educated man and on the smartest people in history, could he plan two thousand years ago for what we should be doing today? Could he predicr threats of climate change, nuclear war, AI, what have you? No, he could not and its only two thousand years. Where, the farthest back in time, do we find people who could make any meaningfull plan for today? Probably less than 100 years ago. So there are two possible conclusions: 1 Elon musk is 100 times smarter than socrates, enabling him to think 10,000 years ahead and predict threats we have not yet conceived. Because he is so used to planning in thousands of years, he is struggling to plan when his Tesla Autopilot will finally be ready or his new product will be released. 2 Society and technology has reached a steady state, and withing the next 10,000 years there will be less change than we experienced in the last 100. 3 This is just a pseudo-intellectual excersise by folks who also happen to be arrogant and calous. What I find to be very pretentious is arguing you can predict anything on the timescales of the universe when the laws of physics behind dark matter, dark energy and Gravity on quantum scales are unknown. For all we know universe could reverse expantion and end in a Big Crunch in 1 billion years.

bm3719 4y ago
Still learning about the tenets of this philosophy here, nor do I have a position on it yet, so might get this wrong... However, isn't there a more charitable argument you could make that looks something like this: 4. Unlike with cavemen and Socrates' time, we now have decisions to make that could lock us out of continued proliferation of human life in the future. As such, the longtermists are bringing attention to those, and trying to help us to make the right decisions, instead of focusing resources on short-term returns. A good example they might support would be spending more money on space tech and less on food for Africa. Resources aren't limitless, and some aren't renewable at all, so we have to use those wisely to position our heirs such that they could take the next step. They might also make the slightly more tenuous claim that since we know more about the nature of the universe, there could be some invariants that we'll certainly need to see through this vision (e.g., establishing self-sustaining life off the planet). Those will be true in the future, just as the caveman could have assumed we would still need food and shelter of some kind in present day.
- lahvak 4y ago
  > A good example they might support would be spending more money on space tech and less on food for Africa. Resources aren't limitless, and some aren't renewable at all, so we have to use those wisely to position our heirs such that they could take the next step. 1. I am not sure whether I can get behind the idea of "long term species survival" if that means that those who survive will be absolutely awful creatures. 2. What makes you think that prioritizing space travel over feeding hungry people will not lead to some sort of societal upheaval that will destroy life on the planet just weeks before the ships take of?
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    To be fair to the longtermists, any non-zero chance of survival beyond Earth is vastly preferable to zero. Especially since we know there exist scenarios, that will occur eventually, that would guarantee an end to human civilization limited to a single planet, such as comet impacts, gamma ray bursts, etc.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      Nearest M class planet is how many lifetimes away? How many earths worth of resources must be consumed just to safely transport bacteria there?
    - KingMob 4y ago
      To be fair to the rest of us, this has to be balanced against any detrimental effect longtermist plans would have on long-term survival on Earth. A .002% chance of making it to the stars probably isn't worth a 4% lower chance of keeping Earth habitable.
  - bm3719 4y ago
    Since they have formulae to quantize this, they would probably weigh the marginal utility of, say, a billion less hungry people now against a -1% chance reduction of annihilation of the human race, and say the latter is a clear winner. Maybe you can count a cultural shift as just another parameter. They seem to weigh survivability super high, above anything else even. The argument there is likely that nothing matters if we aren't alive to ask these questions. I doubt they're considering "societal upheaval" as a species threat, but if it got bad enough to be on their radar, perhaps they would support (normally unpalatable) solutions to that too. It's all about us reweighting our parameters such that our heuristic functions evaluate towards branches that ensure long-term species survival, and the argument that we're doing the opposite of that now in many areas due to short-term, emotional reasoning. Caveat: Not a longtermist here, just projecting based on what I've read of them so far.
javcasas 4y ago
10 billion years is more than the age of the Earth. It's beyond arrogant to plan that anything that we do now will be relevant by then. After all, for more than half the last 10 billion years the Earth didn't exist yet.
mint2 4y ago
A counter point would be that significant chunks of the world profess to guide their lives by a book human men originally put together over a thousand years ago. so is it really far fetched to that chunk of humanity that one can plan a thousand years?
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  And yet we aren't stoning adulterers or eagerly awaiting the majority be cast into a lake of fire. Memes can live a long time, though adherence to the crazier ones will vary widely.
more_corn 4y ago
And yet, we still look to Socrates for wisdom today. We reference his ideas, we guide our actions based on his wisdom. Does he know about Ai? Nope. Does that make him irrelevant? Nope. His ideas of virtue and abstraction are still totally relevant and taught in colleges and universities throughout the world. It is precisely by thinking beyond ourselves that we touch the infinite. And it would be perfectly reasonable for Socrates to say “Wouldn’t you say that it is better to be wise than not wise? And of all the creatures on this earth isn’t there but one capable of wisdom, or at least capable of presenting an intelligible account of wisdom? And if those two things are true. And in order for the light of wisdom to persist and spread, is it not best to preserve the only creature capable of wisdom? Should we not then make every effort to spread that creature and wisdom itself as widely through time and space as is possible?” I suspect Socrates would have identified as a longtermist.

bm3719 4y ago

Still learning about the tenets of this philosophy here, nor do I have a position on it yet, so might get this wrong... However, isn't there a more charitable argument you could make that looks something like this: 4. Unlike with cavemen and Socrates' time, we now have decisions to make that could lock us out of continued proliferation of human life in the future. As such, the longtermists are bringing attention to those, and trying to help us to make the right decisions, instead of focusing resources on short-term returns. A good example they might support would be spending more money on space tech and less on food for Africa. Resources aren't limitless, and some aren't renewable at all, so we have to use those wisely to position our heirs such that they could take the next step. They might also make the slightly more tenuous claim that since we know more about the nature of the universe, there could be some invariants that we'll certainly need to see through this vision (e.g., establishing self-sustaining life off the planet). Those will be true in the future, just as the caveman could have assumed we would still need food and shelter of some kind in present day.

lahvak 4y ago
> A good example they might support would be spending more money on space tech and less on food for Africa. Resources aren't limitless, and some aren't renewable at all, so we have to use those wisely to position our heirs such that they could take the next step. 1. I am not sure whether I can get behind the idea of "long term species survival" if that means that those who survive will be absolutely awful creatures. 2. What makes you think that prioritizing space travel over feeding hungry people will not lead to some sort of societal upheaval that will destroy life on the planet just weeks before the ships take of?
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  To be fair to the longtermists, any non-zero chance of survival beyond Earth is vastly preferable to zero. Especially since we know there exist scenarios, that will occur eventually, that would guarantee an end to human civilization limited to a single planet, such as comet impacts, gamma ray bursts, etc.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    Nearest M class planet is how many lifetimes away? How many earths worth of resources must be consumed just to safely transport bacteria there?
  - KingMob 4y ago
    To be fair to the rest of us, this has to be balanced against any detrimental effect longtermist plans would have on long-term survival on Earth. A .002% chance of making it to the stars probably isn't worth a 4% lower chance of keeping Earth habitable.
- bm3719 4y ago
  Since they have formulae to quantize this, they would probably weigh the marginal utility of, say, a billion less hungry people now against a -1% chance reduction of annihilation of the human race, and say the latter is a clear winner. Maybe you can count a cultural shift as just another parameter. They seem to weigh survivability super high, above anything else even. The argument there is likely that nothing matters if we aren't alive to ask these questions. I doubt they're considering "societal upheaval" as a species threat, but if it got bad enough to be on their radar, perhaps they would support (normally unpalatable) solutions to that too. It's all about us reweighting our parameters such that our heuristic functions evaluate towards branches that ensure long-term species survival, and the argument that we're doing the opposite of that now in many areas due to short-term, emotional reasoning. Caveat: Not a longtermist here, just projecting based on what I've read of them so far.

javcasas 4y ago

10 billion years is more than the age of the Earth. It's beyond arrogant to plan that anything that we do now will be relevant by then. After all, for more than half the last 10 billion years the Earth didn't exist yet.

mint2 4y ago

A counter point would be that significant chunks of the world profess to guide their lives by a book human men originally put together over a thousand years ago. so is it really far fetched to that chunk of humanity that one can plan a thousand years?

paulryanrogers 4y ago
And yet we aren't stoning adulterers or eagerly awaiting the majority be cast into a lake of fire. Memes can live a long time, though adherence to the crazier ones will vary widely.

more_corn 4y ago

And yet, we still look to Socrates for wisdom today. We reference his ideas, we guide our actions based on his wisdom. Does he know about Ai? Nope. Does that make him irrelevant? Nope. His ideas of virtue and abstraction are still totally relevant and taught in colleges and universities throughout the world. It is precisely by thinking beyond ourselves that we touch the infinite. And it would be perfectly reasonable for Socrates to say “Wouldn’t you say that it is better to be wise than not wise? And of all the creatures on this earth isn’t there but one capable of wisdom, or at least capable of presenting an intelligible account of wisdom? And if those two things are true. And in order for the light of wisdom to persist and spread, is it not best to preserve the only creature capable of wisdom? Should we not then make every effort to spread that creature and wisdom itself as widely through time and space as is possible?” I suspect Socrates would have identified as a longtermist.