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Note Popper's definition of the intolerant in this context: those who do not engage in rational argument, and those who forbid their followers to listen to rati

Note Popper's definition of the intolerant in this context: those who do not engage in rational argument, and those who forbid their followers to listen to rational argument. Neither applies here.

AlexandrB 4y ago
How so? The harassment campaigns launched from Kiwifarms seem like the opposite of rational argument. Do you imagine that going into Kiwifarms and engaging the users in rational debate about the basic humanity and dignity of their targets would be a fruitful endeavor?
- philippejara 4y ago
  The harrassment campaigns that have no* paper trail back to kiwifarms, the forum that is public and anyone can archive at any time? Ever since i've started to pay attention to kiwifarms from cloudflare dropping them i've been trying to get the evidence of any harassment coming from there and not being extremely looked down upon/banned and have come out almost empty handed. The scraps i've got are from chris chan in like 2013/2014? This is the kind of dangerous "everyone knows that it is clear they do X thing hence there is no need for evidence". Now to be fair I don't doubt harassment comes from individual kiwifarms users, maybe even organizing with other people somewhere else, but taking down the website will not change that, and guilt by association is a dangerous thing. *none that I could find in the previous threads/most articles about it that is. I'm happy to be proven wrong.
  - throw96 4y ago
    The distance between kiwifarms threads and direct harassment is a thin veneer more meant to shield the site from criticism than anything meaningful. The relationship between the site and the people it stalks is slightly more complicated than appears on the surface. In practice the threads serve largely as a rallying place and public archives of exploits. The actual "touching the poo" occurs in discord servers populated by the very same people posting on the site who initially met in the threads. They will privately coordinate actions on discord, then publicly post them on the site, it is one extra step of laundering that serves only as a layer of plausible deniability. The threads are the central nexus for the harassment, the site rules simply stipulate that the dirtiest work must happen in slightly more private venues. Please understand however, that the threads themselves are essential to this process, they are where the harassment starts and all actions on discord are done specifically to then be posted on the site. This is of course kept as quiet as possible, but an example where the curtain was drawn back would be the behavior of power user SpookyBones. I wont name the person being targeted in particular, but by reading their subforum it is clear to see that kiwifarms users had private discords where they would directly contact the person in question and their friends, and then post the findings back on threads. The distance between kiwifarms itself and direct harassment is mere obfuscation, not a substantive separation. The very people doing the harassment meet on kiwifarms, and then commit their acts purposefully to post on the site. The slight detour offsite for the actual action hardly matters in practice.
    - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
      So basically "i can't provide any evidence but just trust me because I don't like them" then?
    - dbfx 4y ago
      That's a very long winded way to say you have no evidence of it ever happening
      - bitwize 4y ago
        Well, it's like Trump. We can't actually convict him of treason yet, but everybody knows he's a Russian pawn.
- boredhedgehog 4y ago
  In the quote we were discussing, Popper is not concerned with any particular resolution of the argument, but only with whether words are being answered with more words or with fists. As far as I've been able to tell, Moon allows anyone to express any viewpoint on his forum.
kragen 4y ago
I think Kiwi Farms' users harassed several people in retaliation for their speech until they killed themselves, rather than engaging in rational argument with them, defending their rights to speak their unpopular opinions, or even just leaving them alone. We're not talking about acrimonious ideological debate; we're talking about stalking and SWATting.
- EarlKing 4y ago
  No, they didn't. This has been debunked numerous times. The evidence for that is on KF itself. The people who perpetuate this narrative are people actually engaged in harassment against others whose activities are documented on KF using their own words which, oddly enough, they really don't like... leading them to attempt mass deplatforming. Anyone with more than a passing familiarity with this situation knows the score, and no one is fooled.
  - nisegami 4y ago
    I saw it with my own eyes as a user of the site. Yes, KF was used to document awful things by awful people, but it was also used to encourage harassment of people who were just existing (well, existing while trans mostly). A few of those people took their own lives and blamed the harassment that KF enabled.
    - EarlKing 4y ago
      > Yes, KF was used to document awful things by awful people, but it was also used to encourage harassment of people who were just existing (well, existing while trans mostly) No they didn't. Null and the mods are very, very emphatic that harassment is unacceptable (hence the phrase he loves to hate, "Don't touch the poop"). Further, nobody was ever nominated as a lolcow simply for being trans. There's nothing particularly funny about that. OTOH, people falsely accusing streamers of rape and trying to get hormones to minors all while holding yourself out as some kind of moral person? Yeah, that's pretty funny. > A few of those people took their own lives and blamed the harassment that KF enabled. There are exactly three people alleged to have offed themselves, and not one of them ever actually did it because of KF. That too is documented at KF since it's a lie that comes up so often. Since you're familiar with this, though, I'm sure you can name them. I'll wait.

Note Popper's definition of the intolerant in this context: those who do not engage in rational argument, and those who forbid their followers to listen to rational argument. Neither applies here.

AlexandrB 4y ago

How so? The harassment campaigns launched from Kiwifarms seem like the opposite of rational argument. Do you imagine that going into Kiwifarms and engaging the users in rational debate about the basic humanity and dignity of their targets would be a fruitful endeavor?

philippejara 4y ago
The harrassment campaigns that have no* paper trail back to kiwifarms, the forum that is public and anyone can archive at any time? Ever since i've started to pay attention to kiwifarms from cloudflare dropping them i've been trying to get the evidence of any harassment coming from there and not being extremely looked down upon/banned and have come out almost empty handed. The scraps i've got are from chris chan in like 2013/2014? This is the kind of dangerous "everyone knows that it is clear they do X thing hence there is no need for evidence". Now to be fair I don't doubt harassment comes from individual kiwifarms users, maybe even organizing with other people somewhere else, but taking down the website will not change that, and guilt by association is a dangerous thing. *none that I could find in the previous threads/most articles about it that is. I'm happy to be proven wrong.
- throw96 4y ago
  The distance between kiwifarms threads and direct harassment is a thin veneer more meant to shield the site from criticism than anything meaningful. The relationship between the site and the people it stalks is slightly more complicated than appears on the surface. In practice the threads serve largely as a rallying place and public archives of exploits. The actual "touching the poo" occurs in discord servers populated by the very same people posting on the site who initially met in the threads. They will privately coordinate actions on discord, then publicly post them on the site, it is one extra step of laundering that serves only as a layer of plausible deniability. The threads are the central nexus for the harassment, the site rules simply stipulate that the dirtiest work must happen in slightly more private venues. Please understand however, that the threads themselves are essential to this process, they are where the harassment starts and all actions on discord are done specifically to then be posted on the site. This is of course kept as quiet as possible, but an example where the curtain was drawn back would be the behavior of power user SpookyBones. I wont name the person being targeted in particular, but by reading their subforum it is clear to see that kiwifarms users had private discords where they would directly contact the person in question and their friends, and then post the findings back on threads. The distance between kiwifarms itself and direct harassment is mere obfuscation, not a substantive separation. The very people doing the harassment meet on kiwifarms, and then commit their acts purposefully to post on the site. The slight detour offsite for the actual action hardly matters in practice.
  - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
    So basically "i can't provide any evidence but just trust me because I don't like them" then?
  - dbfx 4y ago
    That's a very long winded way to say you have no evidence of it ever happening
    - bitwize 4y ago
      Well, it's like Trump. We can't actually convict him of treason yet, but everybody knows he's a Russian pawn.
boredhedgehog 4y ago
In the quote we were discussing, Popper is not concerned with any particular resolution of the argument, but only with whether words are being answered with more words or with fists. As far as I've been able to tell, Moon allows anyone to express any viewpoint on his forum.

kragen 4y ago

I think Kiwi Farms' users harassed several people in retaliation for their speech until they killed themselves, rather than engaging in rational argument with them, defending their rights to speak their unpopular opinions, or even just leaving them alone. We're not talking about acrimonious ideological debate; we're talking about stalking and SWATting.

EarlKing 4y ago
No, they didn't. This has been debunked numerous times. The evidence for that is on KF itself. The people who perpetuate this narrative are people actually engaged in harassment against others whose activities are documented on KF using their own words which, oddly enough, they really don't like... leading them to attempt mass deplatforming. Anyone with more than a passing familiarity with this situation knows the score, and no one is fooled.
- nisegami 4y ago
  I saw it with my own eyes as a user of the site. Yes, KF was used to document awful things by awful people, but it was also used to encourage harassment of people who were just existing (well, existing while trans mostly). A few of those people took their own lives and blamed the harassment that KF enabled.
  - EarlKing 4y ago
    > Yes, KF was used to document awful things by awful people, but it was also used to encourage harassment of people who were just existing (well, existing while trans mostly) No they didn't. Null and the mods are very, very emphatic that harassment is unacceptable (hence the phrase he loves to hate, "Don't touch the poop"). Further, nobody was ever nominated as a lolcow simply for being trans. There's nothing particularly funny about that. OTOH, people falsely accusing streamers of rape and trying to get hormones to minors all while holding yourself out as some kind of moral person? Yeah, that's pretty funny. > A few of those people took their own lives and blamed the harassment that KF enabled. There are exactly three people alleged to have offed themselves, and not one of them ever actually did it because of KF. That too is documented at KF since it's a lie that comes up so often. Since you're familiar with this, though, I'm sure you can name them. I'll wait.