3 ms·

The issue I see is that sometimes certain fabrication methods are neccessarry. Phones are glued shut, making disassembly difficult, but that glue also has a poi

The issue I see is that sometimes certain fabrication methods are neccessarry. Phones are glued shut, making disassembly difficult, but that glue also has a point, screws take up a lot of space and glue allows a water tight bond between components. Same with non user replacable batteries. It can be very difficult to distinguish between effective design decision and mallicious manufacturing.

nkrisc 4y ago
I don’t think that distinction necessarily needs to be made if the third-party repair industry is allowed to thrive. If getting your phone repaired and given new life was a common thing everyone did, Pennie’s that couldn’t be repaired or were expensive to repair might not sell as well. As it stands glueing the phone shut isn’t an issue for most consumers because they expect to throw away and buy a new phone every year or two.
- constantcrying 4y ago
  The glue has a legitimiate purpose. I wouldn't have had my phone for 5 years without it being water tight. Third party repair being allowed to thrive (e.g. being allowed to buy parts) is something totally different to restricting good engineering practices.
  - nkrisc 4y ago
    Right, which is exactly the point I'm making. If third-party repair was common, consumers could decide if the advantages of having a phone glued together outweigh the advantages of a more repairable phone. My whole point was that the solution is not to force phones to be more repairable, but to stop manufacturers from strangling the repair industry and give consumers actual choice.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ericabiz 4y ago
Most phones are not glued shut, including iPhones starting all the way back to 4/5. iPhone batteries are also not glued in. Source: We run independent repair shops.
- constantcrying 4y ago
  Modern Iphones all contain a glue seal between the back plate and the rest of the body (See: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+14+Battery+Replacement/152966 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+14+Battery+Replacement/1... if you do not believe me). Phones contain these adhesives to use less screws and to keep them water tight. Batteries are behind that glue seal. This is an engineering necessity and not something done to make them hard to repair.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    > This is an engineering necessity and not something done to make them hard to repair. That's not entirely true. My Galaxy S8 has a user-removable SIM tray, and yet it's rated IP68. Water has some viscosity, so it won't flow through tight gaps unless appropriate pressure is applied.
    - constantcrying 4y ago
      How is this relevant? Which phone does not have a "user removable SIM tray". Usually they are sealed as well. And in any case, how does this matter for the back of the phone?
      - alistairSH 4y ago
        He's pointing out that tight tolerances and/or non-adhesive gaskets exist. Glue/adhesive gaskets aren't strictly required to make a water-tight seal.
  - ericabiz 4y ago
    OK. We literally repair these for a living. You and I may have differing definitions of “glue”, but the water seal gasket is not what I would call glue. It is a sticky gasket that is peelable and removable. It can be replaced, and in fact we replace it when we do repairs. Think of it like double-sided tape. If you watch videos of people doing iPhone screen replacements, you can watch them peel it off easily and then replace it when they put the new screen on. I am a bit surprised that someone would want to argue with a person who runs shops that do this for a living, but maybe this explanation will help other folks understand. Also, I can’t reply to your other comment, but the iPhone 14 that is sold in the United States does not have a SIM tray.
MereInterest 4y ago
Though I agree with the general argument, I disagree with the necessity of glued components. When protective phone cases are ubiquitous (80-90% of all phones from a quick search), it shows that the trend for thinner and thinner phones isn't being driven by a desire for thinner phones. Yet so many of the trade-offs in phone design, increasing fragility and decreasing repairability, are being imposed by the relentless pursuit of a thinner phone. Just as it is difficult to distinguish between effective design decisions and malicious manufacturing, I'd say that it is also difficult to distinguish between effective design goals and malicious smokescreens that hide malicious manufacturing.
- tpmoney 4y ago
  > When protective phone cases are ubiquitous (80-90% of all phones from a quick search), it shows that the trend for thinner and thinner phones isn't being driven by a desire for thinner phones. I’m not sure that your conclusion follows from the observation. Sample size of one but I personally am quite happy for phones to be thinner precisely because I put a protective case on mine. A new iPhone with a case can be less than or as thick as the original iPhone was without a case.
  - MereInterest 4y ago
    Good point, there was a missing step in my reasoning. I am assuming that the durability gained by integrated changes to a design have fewer tradeoffs in thickness, as compared to an external case.
Roark66 4y ago
Gluing a phone shut doesn't have to be detrimental to repairability as long as the glue is heat-softening. So far I've opened all my smartphones just by heating them first. However, when they start using thermoset (rather than thermoplastic) glues I'll flip.
- JAlexoid 4y ago
  That's the next step. You'll have a completely custom replaceable band of plastic on the four thin sides, that is discarded upon any authorized repairs.
  - Roark66 4y ago
    I hope not, but even then a thin plastic frame isn't the worst. One could 3d print it for example. The worst I can think of is using a thermoset glue (or a thermally stable epoxy) on metal only parts. Then no one could fix it without replacing the chassis. However, the trend these days seems to be glass backs and this necessitates rubber/silicone like glues to make the glass less likely to break when metal deforms on impact. I don't think there are any glues that are rubber like flexible and they resist heat. So at least until there are glass backs we're fine :-)
JAlexoid 4y ago
That's fine. The issue comes in, when you lose all warranty on parts if someone opens up the phone. Which is unreasonable.... Imagine if your car warranty was contingent on you only using approved mugs inside the vehicle. There are videos of new iPhones treating a replacement screen as not a genuine part... even though it was take off another iPhone right next to it.

nkrisc 4y ago

I don’t think that distinction necessarily needs to be made if the third-party repair industry is allowed to thrive. If getting your phone repaired and given new life was a common thing everyone did, Pennie’s that couldn’t be repaired or were expensive to repair might not sell as well. As it stands glueing the phone shut isn’t an issue for most consumers because they expect to throw away and buy a new phone every year or two.

constantcrying 4y ago
The glue has a legitimiate purpose. I wouldn't have had my phone for 5 years without it being water tight. Third party repair being allowed to thrive (e.g. being allowed to buy parts) is something totally different to restricting good engineering practices.
- nkrisc 4y ago
  Right, which is exactly the point I'm making. If third-party repair was common, consumers could decide if the advantages of having a phone glued together outweigh the advantages of a more repairable phone. My whole point was that the solution is not to force phones to be more repairable, but to stop manufacturers from strangling the repair industry and give consumers actual choice.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ericabiz 4y ago

Most phones are not glued shut, including iPhones starting all the way back to 4/5. iPhone batteries are also not glued in. Source: We run independent repair shops.

constantcrying 4y ago
Modern Iphones all contain a glue seal between the back plate and the rest of the body (See: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+14+Battery+Replacement/152966 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+14+Battery+Replacement/1... if you do not believe me). Phones contain these adhesives to use less screws and to keep them water tight. Batteries are behind that glue seal. This is an engineering necessity and not something done to make them hard to repair.
- Tade0 4y ago
  > This is an engineering necessity and not something done to make them hard to repair. That's not entirely true. My Galaxy S8 has a user-removable SIM tray, and yet it's rated IP68. Water has some viscosity, so it won't flow through tight gaps unless appropriate pressure is applied.
  - constantcrying 4y ago
    How is this relevant? Which phone does not have a "user removable SIM tray". Usually they are sealed as well. And in any case, how does this matter for the back of the phone?
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      He's pointing out that tight tolerances and/or non-adhesive gaskets exist. Glue/adhesive gaskets aren't strictly required to make a water-tight seal.
- ericabiz 4y ago
  OK. We literally repair these for a living. You and I may have differing definitions of “glue”, but the water seal gasket is not what I would call glue. It is a sticky gasket that is peelable and removable. It can be replaced, and in fact we replace it when we do repairs. Think of it like double-sided tape. If you watch videos of people doing iPhone screen replacements, you can watch them peel it off easily and then replace it when they put the new screen on. I am a bit surprised that someone would want to argue with a person who runs shops that do this for a living, but maybe this explanation will help other folks understand. Also, I can’t reply to your other comment, but the iPhone 14 that is sold in the United States does not have a SIM tray.

MereInterest 4y ago

Though I agree with the general argument, I disagree with the necessity of glued components. When protective phone cases are ubiquitous (80-90% of all phones from a quick search), it shows that the trend for thinner and thinner phones isn't being driven by a desire for thinner phones. Yet so many of the trade-offs in phone design, increasing fragility and decreasing repairability, are being imposed by the relentless pursuit of a thinner phone. Just as it is difficult to distinguish between effective design decisions and malicious manufacturing, I'd say that it is also difficult to distinguish between effective design goals and malicious smokescreens that hide malicious manufacturing.

tpmoney 4y ago
> When protective phone cases are ubiquitous (80-90% of all phones from a quick search), it shows that the trend for thinner and thinner phones isn't being driven by a desire for thinner phones. I’m not sure that your conclusion follows from the observation. Sample size of one but I personally am quite happy for phones to be thinner precisely because I put a protective case on mine. A new iPhone with a case can be less than or as thick as the original iPhone was without a case.
- MereInterest 4y ago
  Good point, there was a missing step in my reasoning. I am assuming that the durability gained by integrated changes to a design have fewer tradeoffs in thickness, as compared to an external case.

Roark66 4y ago

Gluing a phone shut doesn't have to be detrimental to repairability as long as the glue is heat-softening. So far I've opened all my smartphones just by heating them first. However, when they start using thermoset (rather than thermoplastic) glues I'll flip.

JAlexoid 4y ago
That's the next step. You'll have a completely custom replaceable band of plastic on the four thin sides, that is discarded upon any authorized repairs.
- Roark66 4y ago
  I hope not, but even then a thin plastic frame isn't the worst. One could 3d print it for example. The worst I can think of is using a thermoset glue (or a thermally stable epoxy) on metal only parts. Then no one could fix it without replacing the chassis. However, the trend these days seems to be glass backs and this necessitates rubber/silicone like glues to make the glass less likely to break when metal deforms on impact. I don't think there are any glues that are rubber like flexible and they resist heat. So at least until there are glass backs we're fine :-)

JAlexoid 4y ago

That's fine. The issue comes in, when you lose all warranty on parts if someone opens up the phone. Which is unreasonable.... Imagine if your car warranty was contingent on you only using approved mugs inside the vehicle. There are videos of new iPhones treating a replacement screen as not a genuine part... even though it was take off another iPhone right next to it.