5 ms·

Feels like we need to spread more awareness of more traditional, offline methods of organizing and protesting en masse, to avoid these kinds of exploits.

germinalphrase 4y ago
In the US, I think most people I know have such weak in-person social patterns (beyond immediate family) that any organization system would be significantly less robust than even forty years ago.
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  To extend: are there even strong resources for systematic organization and resistance?
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    They would evolve when needed.
    - germinalphrase 4y ago
      Perhaps. Presumably any competent security force actively have/seek institutional knowledge on how to manage and suppress organized groups of people (kettling, etc). The information asymmetry here must be significant. Hoping that resources will simply appear feels foolhardy.
godelski 4y ago
Why can't we build distributed networks? I more mean like Google, Apple, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc building methods to communicate through WiFi/Bluetooth and not be completely reliant upon cellular. I don't mean your random 3rd party app that is useless because no one uses it. It helps the people that frequently text in the same room. It helps during natural disasters (including power outages). It helps prevent oppressive governments from shutting down communication. I see these companies talk a lot about promoting democracy, so I want to see them make an open protocol that is installed on all phones that allow this. They have the network effect that's required to do this. Hell, I think even if Apple or Google just did this others would follow. It cleanly fits into the new privacy + safety narratives both are selling.
- azov 4y ago
  There is/was FireChat [1], which does exactly that. AFAIK it gained popularity during Hong Kong protests. Looks like it's now discontinued, not sure if there's a successor app. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireChat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireChat
  - godelski 4y ago
    I'm completely aware that there are apps that do these. The problem is the network effect. This app is all fine and dandy when you think ahead of time, but humans aren't really good at that (I have a laundry list of examples of us not doing this). So what I'm asking for is companies with a large network effect to leverage that, and their huge capital, to improve their existing products to be resistant to things like power outages and government shutdowns. It should be default, not require people to be proactive.
- Syonyk 4y ago
  > Why can't we build distributed networks? We can... but I'll argue, very hard, that we shouldn't. Because it's the wrong technology to solve the problem, being based on the very things that are well targeted, understood, and frequently compromised. If the problem is "Cell phones are compromised through and through," which I'll argue they are, and Apple's addition of Lockdown to work through the fact that even their best sandboxing efforts have been bypassed argues for as well, then "doing things with cell phones" is a horrible idea, because once either an endpoint is compromised, or a tap is within range, you're still giving your adversaries everything they could desire. Both of those are basically certain in a protest.
  - anta40 4y ago
    Hmm... if "doing things with cell phones" is horrible idea, then what's possibley the good idea?
    - Syonyk 4y ago
      Doing things in person, with offline techniques. If your location (which implies who you're with) and at least the metadata of your communications (who you communicate with, when, how frequently, how long of messages, etc) are sensitive, I don't believe there's any way to use a cell phone safely for those tasks. And having grown up before cell phones, I assure you, there are ways to coordinate things offline. We just need to bring them back.
bergenty 4y ago
Most people in the US don’t go to church or belong to any sizable community anymore. It’s going to be really hard to do anything that way.
mradek 4y ago
Social media has destroyed people’s ability (at least in western world) to have IRL interpersonal communications. I find not only myself but many of my peers struggle with this. Online is easy to be in an echo chamber where nothing actually gets done. You find acceptance but it is meaningless once you shut off your phone. You find community but it’s brittle and again you shut off your phone and you’re alone. What we need is a return real life in person social life. Being stuck in online/VR all day is basically a precursor to the matrix.
Syonyk 4y ago
Yes. Consumer technology, the internet, cell phones, etc, have all been tried and found wanting in a wide variety of ways. Unfortunately, because they're sort of "the default" for people, and there are a range of social media companies very, very invested in ensuring that "everything happens on their platforms," we've lost the skills required to do that sort of thing. We ought to be re-developing them in a hurry, because cell phones, internet, etc, have all proven themselves quite evil.
dylan604 4y ago
Bring back the fax machine!!!

germinalphrase 4y ago

In the US, I think most people I know have such weak in-person social patterns (beyond immediate family) that any organization system would be significantly less robust than even forty years ago.

germinalphrase 4y ago
To extend: are there even strong resources for systematic organization and resistance?
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  They would evolve when needed.
  - germinalphrase 4y ago
    Perhaps. Presumably any competent security force actively have/seek institutional knowledge on how to manage and suppress organized groups of people (kettling, etc). The information asymmetry here must be significant. Hoping that resources will simply appear feels foolhardy.

godelski 4y ago

Why can't we build distributed networks? I more mean like Google, Apple, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc building methods to communicate through WiFi/Bluetooth and not be completely reliant upon cellular. I don't mean your random 3rd party app that is useless because no one uses it. It helps the people that frequently text in the same room. It helps during natural disasters (including power outages). It helps prevent oppressive governments from shutting down communication. I see these companies talk a lot about promoting democracy, so I want to see them make an open protocol that is installed on all phones that allow this. They have the network effect that's required to do this. Hell, I think even if Apple or Google just did this others would follow. It cleanly fits into the new privacy + safety narratives both are selling.

azov 4y ago
There is/was FireChat [1], which does exactly that. AFAIK it gained popularity during Hong Kong protests. Looks like it's now discontinued, not sure if there's a successor app. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireChat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireChat
- godelski 4y ago
  I'm completely aware that there are apps that do these. The problem is the network effect. This app is all fine and dandy when you think ahead of time, but humans aren't really good at that (I have a laundry list of examples of us not doing this). So what I'm asking for is companies with a large network effect to leverage that, and their huge capital, to improve their existing products to be resistant to things like power outages and government shutdowns. It should be default, not require people to be proactive.
Syonyk 4y ago
> Why can't we build distributed networks? We can... but I'll argue, very hard, that we shouldn't. Because it's the wrong technology to solve the problem, being based on the very things that are well targeted, understood, and frequently compromised. If the problem is "Cell phones are compromised through and through," which I'll argue they are, and Apple's addition of Lockdown to work through the fact that even their best sandboxing efforts have been bypassed argues for as well, then "doing things with cell phones" is a horrible idea, because once either an endpoint is compromised, or a tap is within range, you're still giving your adversaries everything they could desire. Both of those are basically certain in a protest.
- anta40 4y ago
  Hmm... if "doing things with cell phones" is horrible idea, then what's possibley the good idea?
  - Syonyk 4y ago
    Doing things in person, with offline techniques. If your location (which implies who you're with) and at least the metadata of your communications (who you communicate with, when, how frequently, how long of messages, etc) are sensitive, I don't believe there's any way to use a cell phone safely for those tasks. And having grown up before cell phones, I assure you, there are ways to coordinate things offline. We just need to bring them back.

bergenty 4y ago

Most people in the US don’t go to church or belong to any sizable community anymore. It’s going to be really hard to do anything that way.

mradek 4y ago

Social media has destroyed people’s ability (at least in western world) to have IRL interpersonal communications. I find not only myself but many of my peers struggle with this. Online is easy to be in an echo chamber where nothing actually gets done. You find acceptance but it is meaningless once you shut off your phone. You find community but it’s brittle and again you shut off your phone and you’re alone. What we need is a return real life in person social life. Being stuck in online/VR all day is basically a precursor to the matrix.

Syonyk 4y ago

Yes. Consumer technology, the internet, cell phones, etc, have all been tried and found wanting in a wide variety of ways. Unfortunately, because they're sort of "the default" for people, and there are a range of social media companies very, very invested in ensuring that "everything happens on their platforms," we've lost the skills required to do that sort of thing. We ought to be re-developing them in a hurry, because cell phones, internet, etc, have all proven themselves quite evil.

dylan604 4y ago

Bring back the fax machine!!!