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Honest question: why don’t universities use socioeconomic status (SES) alone for admissions? Don’t they get IRS docs for financial aid? And given that dispariti

by robg 4y ago

Honest question: why don’t universities use socioeconomic status (SES) alone for admissions? Don’t they get IRS docs for financial aid? And given that disparities tied to SES affect child development and opportunities.

sokoloff 4y ago
They get information from the FAFSA form from some students. (If I don’t expect to get any substantial aid, I don’t plan to participate in FAFSA process as it’ll have no benefit to our family and is none of the schools’ business otherwise.) To the extent any SES-sourced disparities have left a given student less scholastically prepared than the school’s standard, should the admission action be to admit or reject? FAFSA - https://studentaid.gov/apply-for-aid/fafsa/filling-out https://studentaid.gov/apply-for-aid/fafsa/filling-out
twobitshifter 4y ago
There are structural inequities in society than benefit one group more than another. Jamal’s family could make the same money as John’s but the world they meet at birth is not the same.
- bequanna 4y ago
  Just say what you really want: Equality of Outcome You know, the system that puts less qualified people over more qualified people for no other reason than virtue signaling. The feel good system that kills competitiveness, decreases efficiency and slows progress.
  - twobitshifter 4y ago
    Why is looking at income disparity okay, but not other disparities? I understand a less stratified and segregated society provides a better life for everyone, and do think that education is the tool to counteract bias. There’s typically 5 types of stratification, economic, social, gender, race, and ethnicity. To just choose economic as the only focus really does not make sense to me.
    - robg 4y ago
      How would you rank order those five on their impacts to the developing child and the opportunities they get?
  - vkou 4y ago
    Billy and Jamal are similar students, who get in the same kind of trouble. Billy gets an informal talking to, while Jamal gets dealt with by a police officer, with consequences to the rest of his academics and childhood, because policing in his town isn't color-blind, and doesn't give two figs about equality of opportunity. Fortunately, the color-blind, impartial post-secondary admissions process looks at their two cases and determines that obviously, Billy would be a better student, and admits him. We can all sleep easily, knowing that equality of outcome was avoided, by simply closing our eyes to all the stages in the pipeline where equality of opportunity was denied to Jamal. All it took was an alliance of color-blindness and just a little bit of actual blindness. Equality of opportunity only works if we take steps to verify it. We don't, and gatekeepers can neither verify, nor enforce it. That's why they prefer equality of outcome - because that's something they can do something about.
    - yucky 4y ago
      Ah yes, Tall Poppy Syndrome. How quaint.
      - vkou 4y ago
        > Billy and Jamal are similar students, who get in the same kind of trouble... > ...but they don't face the same consequences, because one the agents with power over them does not believe in equality of anything > ...and later arbiters of equality of opportunity either can't see[1], or choose not to see a pivotal moment when equality of opportunity was denied to one of them Which of these is the tall poppy, exactly, and how on Earth is this chain of causal events by any means fair, under any value system? Equality of opportunity doesn't work if you don't verify that everyone's actually had it, at every step in their life. Which is also why it doesn't work. That's not to say that equality of outcome doesn't have serious criticisms against it, either. [1] It isn't their job to look.
        yucky 4y ago
        OK now do Sasha and Malia Obama vs some kid from the trailer park. See, skin color is a proxy that only serves to institutionalize racism towards those who are already powerless. The majority of poor people in the country are white and we're telling them (not the Legacy white kids) that they can piss off because they do not have the right skin color. Then we turn around with a shocked look on our face at all of the rising racial resentment. Gee, what could possibly be causing all of this..?
- foogazi 4y ago
  But what does that mean for going to college? You just want to get a college degree and ppl are bringing up your ancestors- wtf
foogazi 4y ago
> why don’t universities use socioeconomic status (SES) alone for admissions? Why ? What does SES have to do with going to college ?

by robg 4y ago

sokoloff 4y ago

They get information from the FAFSA form from some students. (If I don’t expect to get any substantial aid, I don’t plan to participate in FAFSA process as it’ll have no benefit to our family and is none of the schools’ business otherwise.) To the extent any SES-sourced disparities have left a given student less scholastically prepared than the school’s standard, should the admission action be to admit or reject? FAFSA - https://studentaid.gov/apply-for-aid/fafsa/filling-out https://studentaid.gov/apply-for-aid/fafsa/filling-out

twobitshifter 4y ago

There are structural inequities in society than benefit one group more than another. Jamal’s family could make the same money as John’s but the world they meet at birth is not the same.

bequanna 4y ago
Just say what you really want: Equality of Outcome You know, the system that puts less qualified people over more qualified people for no other reason than virtue signaling. The feel good system that kills competitiveness, decreases efficiency and slows progress.
- twobitshifter 4y ago
  Why is looking at income disparity okay, but not other disparities? I understand a less stratified and segregated society provides a better life for everyone, and do think that education is the tool to counteract bias. There’s typically 5 types of stratification, economic, social, gender, race, and ethnicity. To just choose economic as the only focus really does not make sense to me.
  - robg 4y ago
    How would you rank order those five on their impacts to the developing child and the opportunities they get?
- vkou 4y ago
  Billy and Jamal are similar students, who get in the same kind of trouble. Billy gets an informal talking to, while Jamal gets dealt with by a police officer, with consequences to the rest of his academics and childhood, because policing in his town isn't color-blind, and doesn't give two figs about equality of opportunity. Fortunately, the color-blind, impartial post-secondary admissions process looks at their two cases and determines that obviously, Billy would be a better student, and admits him. We can all sleep easily, knowing that equality of outcome was avoided, by simply closing our eyes to all the stages in the pipeline where equality of opportunity was denied to Jamal. All it took was an alliance of color-blindness and just a little bit of actual blindness. Equality of opportunity only works if we take steps to verify it. We don't, and gatekeepers can neither verify, nor enforce it. That's why they prefer equality of outcome - because that's something they can do something about.
  - yucky 4y ago
    Ah yes, Tall Poppy Syndrome. How quaint.
    - vkou 4y ago
      > Billy and Jamal are similar students, who get in the same kind of trouble... > ...but they don't face the same consequences, because one the agents with power over them does not believe in equality of anything > ...and later arbiters of equality of opportunity either can't see[1], or choose not to see a pivotal moment when equality of opportunity was denied to one of them Which of these is the tall poppy, exactly, and how on Earth is this chain of causal events by any means fair, under any value system? Equality of opportunity doesn't work if you don't verify that everyone's actually had it, at every step in their life. Which is also why it doesn't work. That's not to say that equality of outcome doesn't have serious criticisms against it, either. [1] It isn't their job to look.
      - yucky 4y ago
        OK now do Sasha and Malia Obama vs some kid from the trailer park. See, skin color is a proxy that only serves to institutionalize racism towards those who are already powerless. The majority of poor people in the country are white and we're telling them (not the Legacy white kids) that they can piss off because they do not have the right skin color. Then we turn around with a shocked look on our face at all of the rising racial resentment. Gee, what could possibly be causing all of this..?
foogazi 4y ago
But what does that mean for going to college? You just want to get a college degree and ppl are bringing up your ancestors- wtf

foogazi 4y ago

> why don’t universities use socioeconomic status (SES) alone for admissions? Why ? What does SES have to do with going to college ?