4 ms·

So it is fair to say Mastodon is already nazi friendly since nazis can just host their own servers?

by rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ahelwer 4y ago
Just like phpbb is nazi friendly because nazis can run their own phpbb forum server.
- rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
  Yes, that is a fair assessment. Unfortunately, I don't know what the solution to this is.
  - Cyberdog 4y ago
    The solution is mentioned above. Unironic nazis/white nationalists/white supremacists will only last long on free-speech-oriented instances which are likely to be defederated from any instances which explicitly disallow hate speech. Pick one of those latter instances as your home, and you will most likely never see a "nazi" on your timeline unless you go out of your way to go hunting for one.
ceejayoz 4y ago
It's fair to say you can pick a Mastodon server based on rules that make sense to you, which is not the case for Twitter. If your server admin starts posting nutty propaganda (as Musk did today; https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/elon-musk-new-owner-twitter-tweets-unfounded-conspiracy-theory-paul-pe-rcna54717 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/elon-musk-new-owner-twi...), you can migrate somewhere else in a matter of minutes.
- rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    That's a really odd way of looking at open source software.
  - Cyberdog 4y ago
    Mastodon is just an interface for the larger Fediverse network. It does not control the network any more than Microsoft Outlook controls the email network. Similarly, email is a "nazi friendly" technology. Are you going to not use email because of that? It's not reasonable to base every choice in your life around whether a "nazi" could potentially make the same choice.
  - fsflover 4y ago
    > technology that is nazi friendly. Is Windows already banning all nazi users?
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    > Mastodon needs to do something to combat that. If only there was a decentralized social network where you can choose who to federate with...
- augustuspolius 4y ago
  (not familiar with Mastodon tech) Would I be able to move my social graph as well in your example, or just content? E.g. if I first registered an account at mastodon.se and many other mastodon.se users followed me, would they still see my updates if I move to a different instance (or if I am banned from mastodon.se)?
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    I just migrated myself from mastodon.social to a self-hosted instance. After a few minutes my followers all ported over fine.
    - augustuspolius 4y ago
      Is it fair to say that now if I follow you on any instance and then you are banned from that instance, I will continue following you and seeing your posts because your identity is owned by your self-hosted instance?
sschueller 4y ago
Yes and no. Mastodon has been popular with the alt right because they have been banned from other platforms but these "nazi" servers are probably not part of network you join. I doubt a car enthusiasts server would be following any political server. Since every server can pick which servers they want to federate with certain groups will not connect with each other. This however doesn't prevent you from having two accounts.
- themitigating 4y ago
  The alt right isn't banned from any platform
bheadmaster 4y ago
That would be as correct as saying that electricity is nazi friendly because nazis can just run their own power generators.
- rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
  That sounds terrible, why are nazis allowed to do that???
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    Gee, wait till you hear about Nazis being allowed to grow their own food...
- yanderekko 4y ago
  I could absolutely see people saying that the power-generators are Nazi-friendly in this circumstance, and that the people selling/servicing them should be criticized accordingly.
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    Going by that logic, naturally grown food is Nazi-friendly because Nazis can just plant them in their backyard. Should people selling seeds/seedlings be criticized accordingly? That whole argument seems like a badly disguised call for total surveillance.
    - yanderekko 4y ago
      > Should people selling seeds/seedlings be criticized accordingly? Well, the line of cancelling someone until they literally cannot attain food has not been crossed... yet. But if say the Nazis were selling organic food to fund their activities, plenty of people would say it's wrong to sell seeds to the Nazis. I'm not saying that I support this, just that this is what I see the "duty to cancel" arguments implying under these circumstances.
commoner 4y ago
Free and open source software does not discriminate based on political ideology. Unlike Twitter, which is a single instance controlled by a single corporation, Mastodon allows each instance operator to set their own rules. Each Mastodon user can choose the instance (or instances, since most Mastodon clients support multiple accounts) to register their account on.
- augustuspolius 4y ago
  So is the only meaningful difference the scale of an instance? If a single Mastodon instance becomes Twitter-size, then its owners will have the same power over the users and will face the same challenges as the current Twitter? They won't be able to ban users cross-instance, but if they ban you on that instance, wouldn't you have to create a new account somewhere else (i.e. start from zero).
  - commoner 4y ago
    Mastodon will not evolve into a single-instance monolith like Twitter because fediverse users are too diverse to agree on a single set of rules. Some instances are general purpose while others focus on specific topics. Some welcome certain types of content while others don't. If you choose an instance with rules that you agree to follow, you're not likely to be blocked in the first place. But if your Mastodon account is blocked on an instance, it's easy to make a new one on a different instance. There are many other instances to choose from and you can regain your social graph by following everyone again.
yanderekko 4y ago
Yeah, it's ironic that Twitter is allegedly more "Nazi-friendly" than Mastadon - presumably this "Nazi-friendly" shift will be due to a pullback on the aggressive, centralized moderation of mainstream conservative viewpoints. But Mastadon doesn't have this to begin with! I guess the argument is that within Mastadon, it's easier to create your own filter bubbles that would allow you to enjoy an experience untainted by "Nazis"?
- witheld 4y ago
  Your local instance moderators choose are responsible for who their server interacts with. Ultimately this creates many segmented branching networks of federation, and with an appropriate instance, nazis won’t exist in your network.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  > I guess the argument is that within Mastadon, it's easier to create your own filter bubbles that would allow you to enjoy an experience untainted by "Nazis"? This is absolutely the argument. It seems that for some people, the ability to control your own environment is not enough - they want the authority to control everyone else's environment, to make it impossible for people they disagree with to exist. Of course, it always starts with Nazis, because Nazis are universally hated and not arguing against Nazis will get you labeled as one very quick. But in order to be able to make it impossible for one group of people to exist, you must have the ability to make it impossible for any group of people to exist. And that's power I would not trust anyone with.

So it is fair to say Mastodon is already nazi friendly since nazis can just host their own servers?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ahelwer 4y ago

Just like phpbb is nazi friendly because nazis can run their own phpbb forum server.

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
Yes, that is a fair assessment. Unfortunately, I don't know what the solution to this is.
- Cyberdog 4y ago
  The solution is mentioned above. Unironic nazis/white nationalists/white supremacists will only last long on free-speech-oriented instances which are likely to be defederated from any instances which explicitly disallow hate speech. Pick one of those latter instances as your home, and you will most likely never see a "nazi" on your timeline unless you go out of your way to go hunting for one.

ceejayoz 4y ago

It's fair to say you can pick a Mastodon server based on rules that make sense to you, which is not the case for Twitter. If your server admin starts posting nutty propaganda (as Musk did today; https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/elon-musk-new-owner-twitter-tweets-unfounded-conspiracy-theory-paul-pe-rcna54717 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/elon-musk-new-owner-twi...), you can migrate somewhere else in a matter of minutes.

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  That's a really odd way of looking at open source software.
- Cyberdog 4y ago
  Mastodon is just an interface for the larger Fediverse network. It does not control the network any more than Microsoft Outlook controls the email network. Similarly, email is a "nazi friendly" technology. Are you going to not use email because of that? It's not reasonable to base every choice in your life around whether a "nazi" could potentially make the same choice.
- fsflover 4y ago
  > technology that is nazi friendly. Is Windows already banning all nazi users?
- goodpoint 4y ago
  > Mastodon needs to do something to combat that. If only there was a decentralized social network where you can choose who to federate with...
augustuspolius 4y ago
(not familiar with Mastodon tech) Would I be able to move my social graph as well in your example, or just content? E.g. if I first registered an account at mastodon.se and many other mastodon.se users followed me, would they still see my updates if I move to a different instance (or if I am banned from mastodon.se)?
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  I just migrated myself from mastodon.social to a self-hosted instance. After a few minutes my followers all ported over fine.
  - augustuspolius 4y ago
    Is it fair to say that now if I follow you on any instance and then you are banned from that instance, I will continue following you and seeing your posts because your identity is owned by your self-hosted instance?

sschueller 4y ago

Yes and no. Mastodon has been popular with the alt right because they have been banned from other platforms but these "nazi" servers are probably not part of network you join. I doubt a car enthusiasts server would be following any political server. Since every server can pick which servers they want to federate with certain groups will not connect with each other. This however doesn't prevent you from having two accounts.

themitigating 4y ago
The alt right isn't banned from any platform

bheadmaster 4y ago

That would be as correct as saying that electricity is nazi friendly because nazis can just run their own power generators.

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
That sounds terrible, why are nazis allowed to do that???
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  Gee, wait till you hear about Nazis being allowed to grow their own food...
yanderekko 4y ago
I could absolutely see people saying that the power-generators are Nazi-friendly in this circumstance, and that the people selling/servicing them should be criticized accordingly.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  Going by that logic, naturally grown food is Nazi-friendly because Nazis can just plant them in their backyard. Should people selling seeds/seedlings be criticized accordingly? That whole argument seems like a badly disguised call for total surveillance.
  - yanderekko 4y ago
    > Should people selling seeds/seedlings be criticized accordingly? Well, the line of cancelling someone until they literally cannot attain food has not been crossed... yet. But if say the Nazis were selling organic food to fund their activities, plenty of people would say it's wrong to sell seeds to the Nazis. I'm not saying that I support this, just that this is what I see the "duty to cancel" arguments implying under these circumstances.

commoner 4y ago

Free and open source software does not discriminate based on political ideology. Unlike Twitter, which is a single instance controlled by a single corporation, Mastodon allows each instance operator to set their own rules. Each Mastodon user can choose the instance (or instances, since most Mastodon clients support multiple accounts) to register their account on.

augustuspolius 4y ago
So is the only meaningful difference the scale of an instance? If a single Mastodon instance becomes Twitter-size, then its owners will have the same power over the users and will face the same challenges as the current Twitter? They won't be able to ban users cross-instance, but if they ban you on that instance, wouldn't you have to create a new account somewhere else (i.e. start from zero).
- commoner 4y ago
  Mastodon will not evolve into a single-instance monolith like Twitter because fediverse users are too diverse to agree on a single set of rules. Some instances are general purpose while others focus on specific topics. Some welcome certain types of content while others don't. If you choose an instance with rules that you agree to follow, you're not likely to be blocked in the first place. But if your Mastodon account is blocked on an instance, it's easy to make a new one on a different instance. There are many other instances to choose from and you can regain your social graph by following everyone again.

yanderekko 4y ago

Yeah, it's ironic that Twitter is allegedly more "Nazi-friendly" than Mastadon - presumably this "Nazi-friendly" shift will be due to a pullback on the aggressive, centralized moderation of mainstream conservative viewpoints. But Mastadon doesn't have this to begin with! I guess the argument is that within Mastadon, it's easier to create your own filter bubbles that would allow you to enjoy an experience untainted by "Nazis"?

witheld 4y ago
Your local instance moderators choose are responsible for who their server interacts with. Ultimately this creates many segmented branching networks of federation, and with an appropriate instance, nazis won’t exist in your network.
bheadmaster 4y ago
> I guess the argument is that within Mastadon, it's easier to create your own filter bubbles that would allow you to enjoy an experience untainted by "Nazis"? This is absolutely the argument. It seems that for some people, the ability to control your own environment is not enough - they want the authority to control everyone else's environment, to make it impossible for people they disagree with to exist. Of course, it always starts with Nazis, because Nazis are universally hated and not arguing against Nazis will get you labeled as one very quick. But in order to be able to make it impossible for one group of people to exist, you must have the ability to make it impossible for any group of people to exist. And that's power I would not trust anyone with.