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I am amazed to find people cheering for Lula. Not that Bolsonaro is a good choice, but you really should read up on Lula. The US media reduces this as Left v

I am amazed to find people cheering for Lula. Not that Bolsonaro is a good choice, but you really should read up on Lula. The US media reduces this as Left vs Right, but it's more like horribly corrupt, racist, opportunist with a thin veneer of Left, vs horribly corrupt and military-backed Right. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luiz_Inácio_Lula_da_Silva#Corruption_scandals_and_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luiz_Inácio_Lula_da_Silva#Corr... And to be clear, my point is that Brazilians find themselves in an election that is oddly similar to the US election: a choice between two awful candidates that should both be retired from politics.

myth_drannon 4y ago
This is the situation that is playing out in many democraties. Is it because the people are more informed that we consider everyone is bad and just choosing the lesser evil out of two?
- kobalsky 4y ago
  > Is it because the people are more informed that we consider everyone is bad I think it has more to do with disinformation and tribalism being more common now. your political party is like your sports team now, you support it no matter what and the rest are the enemy.
ShivShankaran 4y ago
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  I think most presidents are usually puppets of their advisors and staff. How else could it be? A president can't possibly be an expert in all the domains they have to work in, so they generally rely on advisors to tell them what they should do. Maybe the advisors present a set of choices and let the president pick the one he likes the most, but even then the advisors have a lot of power when they decide which options to present and how to present them.
  - ShivShankaran 4y ago
  - johnchristopher 4y ago
    I think it's not that black and white. Biden has been a senator and a vice-president. Of course he's not an expert in everything but he knows his party's lines and positions well enough to know the general direction he wants to stir the ship without knowing how to weld that pesky loose rivet on third deck.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    I don't know when the term puppet was ever more appropriate than for Bush under Dick Cheney. (And then, only in certain policy areas).
- pjc50 4y ago
  Biden is a good deal more coherent than Trump ever was, but it's still bizarre how much of a gerontocracy the US is.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  Biden is not senile, but superficially there are similarities. Biden and Lula were already established politicians from the highest offices and they made/are making comebacks as sort of old but popular candidates for their parties. Both being the opposite of fresh faces in politics. Running on old merits.
- philippejara 4y ago
  Unless the thing that qualifies someone for being the joe biden of $country is just winning against the trump figure of said country that makes absolutely no sense. Can't even begin to think about any similarities you'd see between biden and lula to preemptively address.
pessimizer 4y ago
I understand that the link has the word "corruption" in it, but it's worth actually reading. Election authorities in Brazil banned Bolsonaro from referring to Lula as "corrupt" or a "thief," and fined him. Normally we don't refer to people who had their convictions annulled (and recorded conspiracies by administrations against them widely shared) as corrupt. > On 23 March 2021, the Supreme Federal Court ruled by a 3–2 decision that Moro, who had overseen Lula's trial in a case, was biased against him.[23] It upheld the ruling on 23 June by a 7–4 decision.[105] Judge Gilmar Mendes of the Supreme Federal Court on 24 June annulled the two other cases Moro had brought against Lula, reasoning that there was a link between them and the case in which Moro was declared biased. This meant that all evidence Moro had collected against Lula is inadmissible in court and fresh trials would be needed. > On 9 June 2019, The Intercept published leaked Telegram messages between the judge in Lula's case, Sérgio Moro, and the Operation Car Wash lead prosecutor, Deltan Dallagnol, in which they allegedly conspired to convict Lula to prevent his candidacy for the 2018 presidential election.[113][114] [115][116][117][118][119] Moro was accused of lacking impartiality in Lula's trial.[120] Following the disclosures, the resumption of legal proceedings was determined by the Supreme Court.[121] Moro denied any wrongdoing or judicial misconduct during the course of Operation Car Wash and his investigation of the former president, claiming that the conversations leaked by The Intercept were misrepresented by the press and that conversations between prosecutors and judges are normal.[122] Moro became Minister of Justice and Public Security after the election of president Jair Bolsonaro, and it is disputed whether an agreement was in place prior to Bolsonaro's election. > The information published by The Intercept prompted reactions both in Brazil and overseas. A group of seventeen lawyers, ministers of Justice, and high court members from eight countries reacted to the leaks by describing former President Lula as a political prisoner and calling for his release.[123] United States Senator Bernie Sanders said Lula should be released and his conviction annulled. Ro Khanna asked the Trump administration to investigate Lula's case, saying that "Moro was a bad actor and part of a larger conspiracy to send Lula to jail".[124] American political commentator Michael Brooks, a vocal advocate for the former president, stated that Lula's imprisonment and Moro's alleged political motives had rendered the results of the 2018 election "fundamentally illegitimate."[125] > Judge Edson Fachin of the Supreme Federal Court annulled all convictions against Lula on 8 March 2021, ruling that the court in Curitiba which convicted him lacked jurisdiction to do so, and ordered a retrial in Brasilia.[130] A full Supreme Court bench later upheld the ruling by an 8–3 decision on 15 April.
tchaffee 4y ago
The judge that convicted Lula was found to be biased against Lula and the charges against Lula were thrown out. "On 9 June 2019, The Intercept published leaked Telegram messages between the judge in Lula's case, Sérgio Moro, and the Operation Car Wash lead prosecutor, Deltan Dallagnol, in which they allegedly conspired to convict Lula to prevent his candidacy for the 2018 presidential election" That judge then went on to be appointed by Bolsonaro. Perhaps the locals cheering on Lula aren't as convinced as you are about him being corrupt. He is also popular because his Bolso Familia program wiped out huge amounts of hunger. Poverty in Brazil dropped by a dramatic 27% during Lula's first term. So of course he has supporters.
- jl6 4y ago
  Lula was a popular president in his first term, and his zero hunger programme was effective, but his annulled conviction for corruption was essentially him getting off on a technicality. All the evidence against him and his cronies is real, albeit now inadmissible. None of which is to say that Bolsonaro is the hero of this story. It’s a proper Kodos and Kang situation.
  - coliveira 4y ago
    If you call technicality the finding (confirmed by justice) of thousands of messages between the judge of the case and the prosecution plotting how to convict him despite nonexistent evidence, then yes. The disgraced judge then immediately turned to use his new fame to enter politics. A complete sham.
  - EL_Loco 4y ago
    I want Lula to win, but only because I want Bolsonaro out. To call Lula Innocent like the left does here is absurd. You had huge corporations returning billions of stolen Reais to the government, some even took out whole page ads in the big newspapers to apologize and admit their guilt, and yet the left still maintains that the whole operation to go after them (these corporations were in bed with Lula's party) a farse. Completely ridiculous. The left here acts just as dishonestly as the right.
knorker 4y ago
Are you reading US media? The US was clearly backing the coup, and Bolsonaro. So you're probably living in a propaganda bubble.
Matheus28 4y ago
Ignoring the corruption claims that people have already addressed, what's the basis for "racist" on your claims for the left leaning candidate?
armchairhacker 4y ago
idk, I don’t doubt that Lula is corrupt and flawed, but Bolsinaro is one of the most authoritarian right-wing leaders I know. While Id rather have a reasonable right-wing leader than a racist corrupt one on either side, I’d rather have a racist corrupt left-wing leader than an even more racist, corrupt right-wing
knorker 4y ago
Bolsonaro cast a vote in the coup impeachment dedicating his vote to the guy who under the dictatorship tortured his (Bolsanaro's) political opponent. They are not the same.
dakial1 4y ago
This thread right here is a good reproduction of what is happening to Brazil.

myth_drannon 4y ago

This is the situation that is playing out in many democraties. Is it because the people are more informed that we consider everyone is bad and just choosing the lesser evil out of two?

kobalsky 4y ago
> Is it because the people are more informed that we consider everyone is bad I think it has more to do with disinformation and tribalism being more common now. your political party is like your sports team now, you support it no matter what and the rest are the enemy.

ShivShankaran 4y ago

MichaelCollins 4y ago
I think most presidents are usually puppets of their advisors and staff. How else could it be? A president can't possibly be an expert in all the domains they have to work in, so they generally rely on advisors to tell them what they should do. Maybe the advisors present a set of choices and let the president pick the one he likes the most, but even then the advisors have a lot of power when they decide which options to present and how to present them.
- ShivShankaran 4y ago
- johnchristopher 4y ago
  I think it's not that black and white. Biden has been a senator and a vice-president. Of course he's not an expert in everything but he knows his party's lines and positions well enough to know the general direction he wants to stir the ship without knowing how to weld that pesky loose rivet on third deck.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  I don't know when the term puppet was ever more appropriate than for Bush under Dick Cheney. (And then, only in certain policy areas).
pjc50 4y ago
Biden is a good deal more coherent than Trump ever was, but it's still bizarre how much of a gerontocracy the US is.
kzrdude 4y ago
Biden is not senile, but superficially there are similarities. Biden and Lula were already established politicians from the highest offices and they made/are making comebacks as sort of old but popular candidates for their parties. Both being the opposite of fresh faces in politics. Running on old merits.
philippejara 4y ago
Unless the thing that qualifies someone for being the joe biden of $country is just winning against the trump figure of said country that makes absolutely no sense. Can't even begin to think about any similarities you'd see between biden and lula to preemptively address.

pessimizer 4y ago

I understand that the link has the word "corruption" in it, but it's worth actually reading. Election authorities in Brazil banned Bolsonaro from referring to Lula as "corrupt" or a "thief," and fined him. Normally we don't refer to people who had their convictions annulled (and recorded conspiracies by administrations against them widely shared) as corrupt. > On 23 March 2021, the Supreme Federal Court ruled by a 3–2 decision that Moro, who had overseen Lula's trial in a case, was biased against him.[23] It upheld the ruling on 23 June by a 7–4 decision.[105] Judge Gilmar Mendes of the Supreme Federal Court on 24 June annulled the two other cases Moro had brought against Lula, reasoning that there was a link between them and the case in which Moro was declared biased. This meant that all evidence Moro had collected against Lula is inadmissible in court and fresh trials would be needed. > On 9 June 2019, The Intercept published leaked Telegram messages between the judge in Lula's case, Sérgio Moro, and the Operation Car Wash lead prosecutor, Deltan Dallagnol, in which they allegedly conspired to convict Lula to prevent his candidacy for the 2018 presidential election.[113][114] [115][116][117][118][119] Moro was accused of lacking impartiality in Lula's trial.[120] Following the disclosures, the resumption of legal proceedings was determined by the Supreme Court.[121] Moro denied any wrongdoing or judicial misconduct during the course of Operation Car Wash and his investigation of the former president, claiming that the conversations leaked by The Intercept were misrepresented by the press and that conversations between prosecutors and judges are normal.[122] Moro became Minister of Justice and Public Security after the election of president Jair Bolsonaro, and it is disputed whether an agreement was in place prior to Bolsonaro's election. > The information published by The Intercept prompted reactions both in Brazil and overseas. A group of seventeen lawyers, ministers of Justice, and high court members from eight countries reacted to the leaks by describing former President Lula as a political prisoner and calling for his release.[123] United States Senator Bernie Sanders said Lula should be released and his conviction annulled. Ro Khanna asked the Trump administration to investigate Lula's case, saying that "Moro was a bad actor and part of a larger conspiracy to send Lula to jail".[124] American political commentator Michael Brooks, a vocal advocate for the former president, stated that Lula's imprisonment and Moro's alleged political motives had rendered the results of the 2018 election "fundamentally illegitimate."[125] > Judge Edson Fachin of the Supreme Federal Court annulled all convictions against Lula on 8 March 2021, ruling that the court in Curitiba which convicted him lacked jurisdiction to do so, and ordered a retrial in Brasilia.[130] A full Supreme Court bench later upheld the ruling by an 8–3 decision on 15 April.

tchaffee 4y ago

The judge that convicted Lula was found to be biased against Lula and the charges against Lula were thrown out. "On 9 June 2019, The Intercept published leaked Telegram messages between the judge in Lula's case, Sérgio Moro, and the Operation Car Wash lead prosecutor, Deltan Dallagnol, in which they allegedly conspired to convict Lula to prevent his candidacy for the 2018 presidential election" That judge then went on to be appointed by Bolsonaro. Perhaps the locals cheering on Lula aren't as convinced as you are about him being corrupt. He is also popular because his Bolso Familia program wiped out huge amounts of hunger. Poverty in Brazil dropped by a dramatic 27% during Lula's first term. So of course he has supporters.

jl6 4y ago
Lula was a popular president in his first term, and his zero hunger programme was effective, but his annulled conviction for corruption was essentially him getting off on a technicality. All the evidence against him and his cronies is real, albeit now inadmissible. None of which is to say that Bolsonaro is the hero of this story. It’s a proper Kodos and Kang situation.
- coliveira 4y ago
  If you call technicality the finding (confirmed by justice) of thousands of messages between the judge of the case and the prosecution plotting how to convict him despite nonexistent evidence, then yes. The disgraced judge then immediately turned to use his new fame to enter politics. A complete sham.
- EL_Loco 4y ago
  I want Lula to win, but only because I want Bolsonaro out. To call Lula Innocent like the left does here is absurd. You had huge corporations returning billions of stolen Reais to the government, some even took out whole page ads in the big newspapers to apologize and admit their guilt, and yet the left still maintains that the whole operation to go after them (these corporations were in bed with Lula's party) a farse. Completely ridiculous. The left here acts just as dishonestly as the right.

knorker 4y ago

Are you reading US media? The US was clearly backing the coup, and Bolsonaro. So you're probably living in a propaganda bubble.

Matheus28 4y ago

Ignoring the corruption claims that people have already addressed, what's the basis for "racist" on your claims for the left leaning candidate?

armchairhacker 4y ago

idk, I don’t doubt that Lula is corrupt and flawed, but Bolsinaro is one of the most authoritarian right-wing leaders I know. While Id rather have a reasonable right-wing leader than a racist corrupt one on either side, I’d rather have a racist corrupt left-wing leader than an even more racist, corrupt right-wing

knorker 4y ago

Bolsonaro cast a vote in the coup impeachment dedicating his vote to the guy who under the dictatorship tortured his (Bolsanaro's) political opponent. They are not the same.

dakial1 4y ago

This thread right here is a good reproduction of what is happening to Brazil.