6 ms·

> achieves virtually nothing. The purpose of prisons is to remove people from society altogether, yes. They do accomplish this. Your complaint on that point is

by avalys 4y ago

> achieves virtually nothing. The purpose of prisons is to remove people from society altogether, yes. They do accomplish this. Your complaint on that point is that they don't do this efficiently (compared to what, killing the prisoners instead?)

arcticbull 4y ago
The penal system generally solves along three axes, whose distribution varies based on the society in which they exist. 1) Segregation. Taking dangerous individuals and putting them in a separate area away from society. 2) Rehabilitation. Changing the behavior of these individuals to avoid recidivism. 3) Retribution. Just making these people miserable because it people outside prison feel good knowing the people in prison are having a bad time. The US penal system is designed principally around (1) and (3) and pays lip service to (2).
- tyingq 4y ago
  I wouldn't overlook the money angle either. Privatization, either outright, or in part via service fees for phones, books, commissary, etc, has changed the system.
  - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
    It's mostly money. The penal system is extremely profitable. Slave labour redefined.
    - gruez 4y ago
      >It's mostly money. The penal system is extremely profitable. source? Specifically, the claim that it's "mostly" money.
      - formerkrogemp 4y ago
        CoreCivic and Geo both own and operate the majority of prisons in the US.
        hirvi74 4y ago
        Only ~8% of prisoners are incarcerated in private facilities. https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/private-priso...
        formerkrogemp 4y ago
        "Companies own or manage 75% of U.S. detention facilities. Two of the biggest companies, CoreCivic and The GEO Group, are publicly traded. In the correctional system, however, less than 10% of state and federal inmates are in the care of private prisons." https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/02/why-private-prisons-geo-group-and-corecivic-are-struggling-under-trump.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/02/why-private-prisons-geo-grou... Well, it seems I need to brush up on some reading then.
    - sangnoir 4y ago
      Slave labor continued - the 14th amendment clearly spells it out : "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States[...]"
      - bobmaxup 4y ago
        > the 14th amendment clearly spells The 13th*
- rrdharan 4y ago
  There’s also deterrence.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Deterrence is a very legit reason. At least make the rational actor part evaluate if the crime is worth the risk and time spend in jail. Now part of this group should be able to reintegrate. If they are given a reasonable chance, but it feels that entire other part of system is build on this never happening.
    - iso1631 4y ago
      Doesn't that become a transactional approach. "If I rob this bank I have a 50% chance of getting away with $1m and 50% chance of going to jail for 5 years, that means the value is $200k/year"
      - Ekaros 4y ago
        It is, just like fines are. I have x% chance of getting caught and the cost is xxx. Do I want to follow the rules or break them.
  - hackeraccount 4y ago
    I'd like a US criminal justice system that got this part - my hand hurts when I touch a hot stove - right. Instead what happens is that you touch the hot stove 20 times to no effect and on time 21 your hand is burned to a crisp. Worse still it's burned to a crisp the day after you touch the stove. Is my hand a blackened stump because of the stove? Maybe? Who can say for sure. My ideal would be that when you commit a crime the justice system finds you guilty or innocent extremely quickly and if prison time is the punishment you get in prison quickly, get out quickly and once done with that the slate is clean. I honestly think that would be more of a deterrent then the status quo.
    - sacrosancty 4y ago
- mafuy 4y ago
  Is this true? As far as I know the penal system has one and only one purpose: deterrence. 1) and 2) are a practically-oriented bonus. 3) is, to my knowledge, explicitly not a goal.
  - hither_shores 4y ago
    Officially, it's all of them. From title 18 section 3553 of the US code: > The court, in determining the particular sentence to be imposed, shall consider ... > (2) the need for the sentence imposed— > (A) to reflect the seriousness of the offense, to promote respect for the law, and to provide just punishment for the offense; > (B) to afford adequate deterrence to criminal conduct; > (C) to protect the public from further crimes of the defendant; and > (D) to provide the defendant with needed educational or vocational training, medical care, or other correctional treatment in the most effective manner; https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3553 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3553
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      Officially you are wrong. It is not intended to promote correction or rehabilitation. See §3582(a). Imposition of a sentence of imprisonment.... "recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation."
    - mafuy 4y ago
      This is surprising to me. In Germany, the constitution (as the highest law) is clear on the issue: punishment is not a goal, only deterrence of also the violator but especially others. I guess it is because the constitution here is quite new, compared to US. Funny tho, as I believe the US played an important role in drafting it.
  - winnie_ua 4y ago
    If it's main purpose was deterrence, then why put in prison people who killed soneon by accident? Not murder but manslaughter. And person is really sorry for that act and would do anything to be sure it to not happen again. In contrast, serving sentence in prison may change their personality. So as I see it: it's revenge + lesson to people outside, to not commit crime.
- andrei_says_ 4y ago
  Don’t forget (4) profit where forced labor is the norm as its refusal is tied to longer sentences. Also the cost per prisoner per day for us taxpayers is nothing short of obscene.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  It explicitly excludes 2. From Title 18 §3582(a) Imposition of a sentence of imprisonment: "recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation."
- khazhoux 4y ago
  > 3) Retribution. Just making these people miserable because it people outside prison feel good knowing the people in prison are having a bad time. Do you reject the entire concept of punishment?
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    I wasn’t really opining just observing, but it was an early American principle that losing your freedom is in and of itself punishment.
bnralt 4y ago
Indeed. Here's a case I happened across recently that go almost no media attention[1]. Got almost no media attention. Guy that stalked and assaulted a woman was released early on parole. Proceeds to stalk woman again, is arrested, prosecutors don't press charges. Assaults the woman again, is arrested again, prosecutors don't press charges. Eventually, the man kills the woman. There are dangerous individuals that need to be removed from society, and when they're not, they hurt and kill those around them. If there is a more efficient and effective way to do this, that would be great. But it's hard to have this discussion when people pretend these things aren't important functions that need to be addressed in some way. [1] https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/stalking-murder-dc-sylvia-matthews-southwest-michael-garrett-alleged-homicide/65-4dfabc18-d683-4d67-ba30-12755d65b115 https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/stalking-murder-...
- amanaplanacanal 4y ago
  Yes, that happens. But what percent of folks in the criminal Justice system are that guy? 5%? 95%? And what do we do to try to change those people so that they don’t do it again when they are released?
  - jvanderbot 4y ago
    The false positive vs false negative discussion in criminal justice is the whole problem. You cannot come up with a number that is satisfactory to everyone, and for every person you lock away forever because they will surely reoffend, how many should legitimately be over-punished for their actions? I personally think we should provide more productive activities for prisoners, so that it is not necessarily the end of their lives or contributions to society. But that is so ripe for abuse that it's useless to even start the discussion.
  - alex_sf 4y ago
    76.6% of US prisoners are 'that guy'. [1] [1] https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/
WalterBright 4y ago
You could do this more efficiently by putting the nonviolent ones in a separate facility that is far less secure, more like army barracks. The incentive would be if they become violent, or escape, they go to the violent prison.
- ajb 4y ago
  This is exactly the system in the UK, low security prisons for fraudsters and the like. Usually convicts do a stint in a high security prison at the start, to see if they are going to be a good boy, and to give them a taste of what it's like if they aren't.
- khazhoux 4y ago
  I think you're describing the current system. There are multiple prison levels. https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/different-types-of-prisons/ https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/diffe...

by avalys 4y ago

arcticbull 4y ago

The penal system generally solves along three axes, whose distribution varies based on the society in which they exist. 1) Segregation. Taking dangerous individuals and putting them in a separate area away from society. 2) Rehabilitation. Changing the behavior of these individuals to avoid recidivism. 3) Retribution. Just making these people miserable because it people outside prison feel good knowing the people in prison are having a bad time. The US penal system is designed principally around (1) and (3) and pays lip service to (2).

tyingq 4y ago
I wouldn't overlook the money angle either. Privatization, either outright, or in part via service fees for phones, books, commissary, etc, has changed the system.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  It's mostly money. The penal system is extremely profitable. Slave labour redefined.
  - gruez 4y ago
    >It's mostly money. The penal system is extremely profitable. source? Specifically, the claim that it's "mostly" money.
    - formerkrogemp 4y ago
      CoreCivic and Geo both own and operate the majority of prisons in the US.
      - hirvi74 4y ago
        Only ~8% of prisoners are incarcerated in private facilities. https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/private-priso...
        formerkrogemp 4y ago
        "Companies own or manage 75% of U.S. detention facilities. Two of the biggest companies, CoreCivic and The GEO Group, are publicly traded. In the correctional system, however, less than 10% of state and federal inmates are in the care of private prisons." https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/02/why-private-prisons-geo-group-and-corecivic-are-struggling-under-trump.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/02/why-private-prisons-geo-grou... Well, it seems I need to brush up on some reading then.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    Slave labor continued - the 14th amendment clearly spells it out : "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States[...]"
    - bobmaxup 4y ago
      > the 14th amendment clearly spells The 13th*
rrdharan 4y ago
There’s also deterrence.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Deterrence is a very legit reason. At least make the rational actor part evaluate if the crime is worth the risk and time spend in jail. Now part of this group should be able to reintegrate. If they are given a reasonable chance, but it feels that entire other part of system is build on this never happening.
  - iso1631 4y ago
    Doesn't that become a transactional approach. "If I rob this bank I have a 50% chance of getting away with $1m and 50% chance of going to jail for 5 years, that means the value is $200k/year"
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      It is, just like fines are. I have x% chance of getting caught and the cost is xxx. Do I want to follow the rules or break them.
- hackeraccount 4y ago
  I'd like a US criminal justice system that got this part - my hand hurts when I touch a hot stove - right. Instead what happens is that you touch the hot stove 20 times to no effect and on time 21 your hand is burned to a crisp. Worse still it's burned to a crisp the day after you touch the stove. Is my hand a blackened stump because of the stove? Maybe? Who can say for sure. My ideal would be that when you commit a crime the justice system finds you guilty or innocent extremely quickly and if prison time is the punishment you get in prison quickly, get out quickly and once done with that the slate is clean. I honestly think that would be more of a deterrent then the status quo.
  - sacrosancty 4y ago
mafuy 4y ago
Is this true? As far as I know the penal system has one and only one purpose: deterrence. 1) and 2) are a practically-oriented bonus. 3) is, to my knowledge, explicitly not a goal.
- hither_shores 4y ago
  Officially, it's all of them. From title 18 section 3553 of the US code: > The court, in determining the particular sentence to be imposed, shall consider ... > (2) the need for the sentence imposed— > (A) to reflect the seriousness of the offense, to promote respect for the law, and to provide just punishment for the offense; > (B) to afford adequate deterrence to criminal conduct; > (C) to protect the public from further crimes of the defendant; and > (D) to provide the defendant with needed educational or vocational training, medical care, or other correctional treatment in the most effective manner; https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3553 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3553
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    Officially you are wrong. It is not intended to promote correction or rehabilitation. See §3582(a). Imposition of a sentence of imprisonment.... "recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation."
  - mafuy 4y ago
    This is surprising to me. In Germany, the constitution (as the highest law) is clear on the issue: punishment is not a goal, only deterrence of also the violator but especially others. I guess it is because the constitution here is quite new, compared to US. Funny tho, as I believe the US played an important role in drafting it.
- winnie_ua 4y ago
  If it's main purpose was deterrence, then why put in prison people who killed soneon by accident? Not murder but manslaughter. And person is really sorry for that act and would do anything to be sure it to not happen again. In contrast, serving sentence in prison may change their personality. So as I see it: it's revenge + lesson to people outside, to not commit crime.
andrei_says_ 4y ago
Don’t forget (4) profit where forced labor is the norm as its refusal is tied to longer sentences. Also the cost per prisoner per day for us taxpayers is nothing short of obscene.
ROTMetro 4y ago
It explicitly excludes 2. From Title 18 §3582(a) Imposition of a sentence of imprisonment: "recognizing that imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation."
khazhoux 4y ago
> 3) Retribution. Just making these people miserable because it people outside prison feel good knowing the people in prison are having a bad time. Do you reject the entire concept of punishment?
- arcticbull 4y ago
  I wasn’t really opining just observing, but it was an early American principle that losing your freedom is in and of itself punishment.

bnralt 4y ago

Indeed. Here's a case I happened across recently that go almost no media attention[1]. Got almost no media attention. Guy that stalked and assaulted a woman was released early on parole. Proceeds to stalk woman again, is arrested, prosecutors don't press charges. Assaults the woman again, is arrested again, prosecutors don't press charges. Eventually, the man kills the woman. There are dangerous individuals that need to be removed from society, and when they're not, they hurt and kill those around them. If there is a more efficient and effective way to do this, that would be great. But it's hard to have this discussion when people pretend these things aren't important functions that need to be addressed in some way. [1] https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/stalking-murder-dc-sylvia-matthews-southwest-michael-garrett-alleged-homicide/65-4dfabc18-d683-4d67-ba30-12755d65b115 https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/stalking-murder-...

amanaplanacanal 4y ago
Yes, that happens. But what percent of folks in the criminal Justice system are that guy? 5%? 95%? And what do we do to try to change those people so that they don’t do it again when they are released?
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  The false positive vs false negative discussion in criminal justice is the whole problem. You cannot come up with a number that is satisfactory to everyone, and for every person you lock away forever because they will surely reoffend, how many should legitimately be over-punished for their actions? I personally think we should provide more productive activities for prisoners, so that it is not necessarily the end of their lives or contributions to society. But that is so ripe for abuse that it's useless to even start the discussion.
- alex_sf 4y ago
  76.6% of US prisoners are 'that guy'. [1] [1] https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/ https://harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/

WalterBright 4y ago

You could do this more efficiently by putting the nonviolent ones in a separate facility that is far less secure, more like army barracks. The incentive would be if they become violent, or escape, they go to the violent prison.

ajb 4y ago
This is exactly the system in the UK, low security prisons for fraudsters and the like. Usually convicts do a stint in a high security prison at the start, to see if they are going to be a good boy, and to give them a taste of what it's like if they aren't.
khazhoux 4y ago
I think you're describing the current system. There are multiple prison levels. https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/different-types-of-prisons/ https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/diffe...