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> Someone who committed a crime at 19 is a wholly different person at 50. Not necessarily, some people are just bad or damaged to the extent that they can not

by dazc 4y ago

> Someone who committed a crime at 19 is a wholly different person at 50. Not necessarily, some people are just bad or damaged to the extent that they can not live a normal life within society. I remember kids I knew as a child who were just evil, such as cruelty to animals, violence towards females, etc for no logical reason and these are all people who ended up in prison for some crime or another. There has to be a sanction for this kind of destructive behaviour and the remote chance that some random violent criminal has a potential to be to be some of saint, if only they have one more chance, is robbed of this opportunity is a price worth paying for the greater good..

chki 4y ago
I wholeheartedly disagree. People can change and people do change. People can receive therapy. I was a very different person 5 years ago. I can't imagine how I will change in the next 20.
- dazc 4y ago
  People can change but mostly the don't. If someone let you down 5 years ago they will, most likely, let you down again.
- rafaelero 4y ago
  With a 40% reconviction rate after prisoners are released [1], I think it's reasonable to assume a lot of them will keep misbehaving. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/
virgildotcodes 4y ago
Well they don't need to be a saint, as none of us are. They just need to learn how to function in society. I think rehabilitation is possible for the majority. Norway seems to show this in that they do not instate capital punishment or life imprisonment, yet have extremely low recidivism rates (especially compared to the US).
- bombcar 4y ago
  If we set the criminally insane aside (a small portion to be sure) the majority remaining need training, motivation, assistance, and separation. 1. Training - many people in prison never learned how to "live productively" if you will - this includes things like job training but also basic life training, etc. Nobody should leave prison with anything less than an high school equivalent education, and training and knowledge on how to cook, clean, etc for themselves. 2. Motivation - the "why bother" needs to be shown and instilled - why bother doing a job when you can just do a crime or drugs instead? 3. Assistance - we shouldn't just dump people out of prison on the street - they don't know where to go or who to contact and it's likely the people they DO know are other criminals, which doesn't help. There should be "outpatient" assistance provided that gets them a job, housing, etc. Call it supervised release as part of the sentence and you could do quite a bit. Provide incentives and security for companies to hire ex-cons, and continue to assist as long as necessary. 4. Separation - it can be vitally important to help ex-cons separate their "con life" from their future life, whatever that may be. Many of the successful ex-cons were in prison for an "accident" (e.g, unintentional murder because they drove drunk, etc) and so their support groups are non-criminals, but the ones who only know other criminals may need to be moved elsewhere for a time.
lisper 4y ago
> remember kids I knew as a child who were just evil, such as cruelty to animals, violence towards females, etc for no logical reason and these are all people who ended up in prison for some crime or another. Yes, but did you ever follow up to see if all of these people you knew as kids were still evil as adults? I did a lot of crazy shit when I was younger that I would never do today. People do change as they grow older. And even if there are exceptions, that is not a valid reason to imprison any particular individual with no hope of redemption.
- dazc 4y ago
  > I did a lot of crazy shit when I was younger that I would never do today. Did you torture a hamster because it was funny, like throwing it hard against a wall to see if it would bounce? Did you beat the shit out of a 5 year old girl because there was no one around to stop you? No? There is crazy shit and there is just evil. And yes, those people did end up doing much worse things because society just kept giving them that chance to turn into a saint.
  - texaslonghorn5 4y ago
    what can you tell us about how they were parented?
    - bequanna 4y ago
      I really don’t like this line of thinking. This is the kind of bullshit trick that many terrible, violent criminals like the Menendez bros try to pull when they get caught: “It isn’t my fault I murdered/raped/etc, my upbringing was poor.”
      - texaslonghorn5 4y ago
        whoa there, you made a big jump. I didn't remove culpability from them. I'm just curious if there were any recognizable patterns between the parenting and the future bad behaviors.
watwut 4y ago
> I remember kids I knew as a child who were just evil, such as cruelty to animals, violence towards females If they exhibit all of that as kids, they need intervention as kids. This sort of stuff happens when kids are abused by their families and don't get help. It may be unfixable at some point, but the original of it is adults in those kids lives.

by dazc 4y ago

chki 4y ago

I wholeheartedly disagree. People can change and people do change. People can receive therapy. I was a very different person 5 years ago. I can't imagine how I will change in the next 20.

dazc 4y ago
People can change but mostly the don't. If someone let you down 5 years ago they will, most likely, let you down again.
rafaelero 4y ago
With a 40% reconviction rate after prisoners are released [1], I think it's reasonable to assume a lot of them will keep misbehaving. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/

virgildotcodes 4y ago

Well they don't need to be a saint, as none of us are. They just need to learn how to function in society. I think rehabilitation is possible for the majority. Norway seems to show this in that they do not instate capital punishment or life imprisonment, yet have extremely low recidivism rates (especially compared to the US).

bombcar 4y ago
If we set the criminally insane aside (a small portion to be sure) the majority remaining need training, motivation, assistance, and separation. 1. Training - many people in prison never learned how to "live productively" if you will - this includes things like job training but also basic life training, etc. Nobody should leave prison with anything less than an high school equivalent education, and training and knowledge on how to cook, clean, etc for themselves. 2. Motivation - the "why bother" needs to be shown and instilled - why bother doing a job when you can just do a crime or drugs instead? 3. Assistance - we shouldn't just dump people out of prison on the street - they don't know where to go or who to contact and it's likely the people they DO know are other criminals, which doesn't help. There should be "outpatient" assistance provided that gets them a job, housing, etc. Call it supervised release as part of the sentence and you could do quite a bit. Provide incentives and security for companies to hire ex-cons, and continue to assist as long as necessary. 4. Separation - it can be vitally important to help ex-cons separate their "con life" from their future life, whatever that may be. Many of the successful ex-cons were in prison for an "accident" (e.g, unintentional murder because they drove drunk, etc) and so their support groups are non-criminals, but the ones who only know other criminals may need to be moved elsewhere for a time.

lisper 4y ago

> remember kids I knew as a child who were just evil, such as cruelty to animals, violence towards females, etc for no logical reason and these are all people who ended up in prison for some crime or another. Yes, but did you ever follow up to see if all of these people you knew as kids were still evil as adults? I did a lot of crazy shit when I was younger that I would never do today. People do change as they grow older. And even if there are exceptions, that is not a valid reason to imprison any particular individual with no hope of redemption.

dazc 4y ago
> I did a lot of crazy shit when I was younger that I would never do today. Did you torture a hamster because it was funny, like throwing it hard against a wall to see if it would bounce? Did you beat the shit out of a 5 year old girl because there was no one around to stop you? No? There is crazy shit and there is just evil. And yes, those people did end up doing much worse things because society just kept giving them that chance to turn into a saint.
- texaslonghorn5 4y ago
  what can you tell us about how they were parented?
  - bequanna 4y ago
    I really don’t like this line of thinking. This is the kind of bullshit trick that many terrible, violent criminals like the Menendez bros try to pull when they get caught: “It isn’t my fault I murdered/raped/etc, my upbringing was poor.”
    - texaslonghorn5 4y ago
      whoa there, you made a big jump. I didn't remove culpability from them. I'm just curious if there were any recognizable patterns between the parenting and the future bad behaviors.

watwut 4y ago

> I remember kids I knew as a child who were just evil, such as cruelty to animals, violence towards females If they exhibit all of that as kids, they need intervention as kids. This sort of stuff happens when kids are abused by their families and don't get help. It may be unfixable at some point, but the original of it is adults in those kids lives.